32: Godless

DJQuad · 08-01-2013, 07:51 PM

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Originally Posted by myq

On what are you basing the idea that "theism and atheism HAVE HAD TO EXIST" since that long ago?

Generally on this when humans were first mentioned - Timeline of human evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't that includes human consciousness? If so I would think that the questions and both sides of the belief started then. That's why I said "(millions of years ago?)".

I doubt they started having spirited debates around a grand roundtable with debatable scientific points and counterpoints and were more concerned about things like food, but you know what i mean.

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Also, I don't think any of this specifically matters to the larger point of this discussion. But we're having fun!

Yes we are! This is pretty off-topic too but I often wonder when true human consciousness existed. That had to be a gradual process based on what we know about evolution (and therefore, brain evolution) so there probably isn't an answer to that.

Speaking about evolution (last off-topic pondering I promise..heh) I also often wonder about what humans will be like in say, thousands of years from now. Will we be all be considered computers from the implanted brain chips? Will nano-bots be "smart" enough to fix all human ailments including cancer, diabetes, heart disease, spinal cord injury, alzheimers, etc? Will 3D printers be able to produce human organs like fixing a kidney would be as common as ordering a cheeseburger at the drive-thru? Will we have discovered the keys to light-speed, wormholes, super-massive blackholes, parallel universes, dimensions beyond 3 ... and I dare say, finally proof that a creator does or doesn't exist. It's weird to think about but at some point technology will be able to prevent death itself by fixing whatever ailment causes it today. Heart failure? No problem, a 3D heart could be printed to prevent it.

I could go on but my brain hurts. No wonder I can't sleep. lol

HUAR! No no

myq · 08-01-2013, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJQuad

Generally on this when humans were first mentioned - Timeline of human evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't that includes human consciousness? If so I would think that the questions and both sides of the belief started then. That's why I said "(millions of years ago?)".

I doubt they started having spirited debates around a grand roundtable with debatable scientific points and counterpoints and were more concerned about things like food, but you know what i mean.

I actually do not know what you mean, sincerely. Not trying to be contrarian for the sake of it, but I don't see what point you are making with that link. I see that it says humans started existing a couple million years ago, but the links I provided demonstrate that the existence of religious practices and beliefs didn't necessarily coincide with that.

Just because there is consciousness, doesn't mean there is belief in god. That seems like a huge leap of an assumption, and I'm not sure I see why you're making it.

Also, consciousness didn't begin with humans. The pre-human primates that preceded humans also had consciousness. Apes today have consciousness. Non-human animals have consciousness. Do you think that apes have a concept of god?

Are some or all apes atheists to you? Or does that question not make sense? If it doesn't make sense (which I believe it doesn't), then I believe when humans came into existence (which was indeed a gradual process), that there are humans that defy the question of whether or not they were atheists.

There are orangutans and chimps conscious today who have a higher level of brain power and activity and self-concept than some humans (e.g. severely retarded ones, brain-injured ones), so the idea of "human consciousness" as something distinct and special that we possess and no other beings do, I think is a flawed concept to begin with.

I'm heading out for the evening but continue to have fun, everyone!

DJQuad · 08-01-2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myq

I actually do not know what you mean, sincerely. Not trying to be contrarian for the sake of it, but I don't see what point you are making with that link. I see that it says humans started existing a couple million years ago, but the links I provided demonstrate that the existence of religious practices and beliefs didn't necessarily coincide with that.

Just because there is consciousness, doesn't mean there is belief in god. That seems like a huge leap of an assumption, and I'm not sure I see why you're making it.

I didn't say that consciousness equals a belief or disbelief in god, but now that you said that, it actually makes sense to me.

I suppose the time that consciousness existed is the greater question. At some point (probably shortly after makes sense to me) humans started looking up at the stars, started wondering about creation, where they came from, started understanding it was either evolution or a greater power beyond our understanding.

Doesn't it make sense that from there, beliefs started?

That was long before atheism was even termed in the 1600s, and before paleolithicism existed 30,000-50,000 years ago.

Human consciousness existed far earlier than that and it doesn't makes sense that the question of existence started 50,000 years ago. Were they just dumb for about a million years until that point?

Scumhook · 08-01-2013, 08:47 PM

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Originally Posted by DJQuad

paleolithicism

Making up words by bashing your cat's head on the keyboard won't help you win this, quaddo.

myq · 08-01-2013, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJQuad

I didn't say that consciousness equals a belief or disbelief in god, but now that you said that, it actually makes sense to me.

I suppose the time that consciousness existed is the greater question. At some point (probably shortly after makes sense to me) humans started looking up at the stars, started wondering about creation, where they came from, started understanding it was either evolution or a greater power beyond our understanding.

Doesn't it make sense that from there, beliefs started?

No, I don't agree that what you're saying makes sense. That was what I was saying earlier, that you didn't respond to.

Animals possess consciousness. Do you believe that animals look at the sky and wonder about god?

If so, we disagree and that is fine. If not, then remember that humans are animals, and that the development of our consciousness from pre-human to human must have been a continuum, that started with zero (or less) wonder and belief and ended up with the capacity for more.

Today, the fact that people believe is exhibited in many physical ways. Those physical ways date back quite a ways, but not all the way back to the beginning of humanity. Not even most of the way. Which is not to say that there couldn't be belief before it physically manifested, but the beginning of humanity's existence is marked by biology, not psychology.

That's more than I meant to say, so in order to not obscure things further, I ask you: do you think that any non-human animals have a concept of god/belief/wonder (while looking up at the sky)?

Scumhook · 08-01-2013, 10:08 PM

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Originally Posted by myq

Do you believe that animals look at the sky and wonder about god?

My dyslexic cat wonders about dog.

Does that count?

DJQuad · 08-02-2013, 04:07 PM

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Originally Posted by Scumhook

Making up words by bashing your cat's head on the keyboard won't help you win this, quaddo.

lol. doh I meant paleolithic, as in the stone age.

DJQuad · 08-02-2013, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by myq

That's more than I meant to say, so in order to not obscure things further, I ask you: do you think that any non-human animals have a concept of god/belief/wonder (while looking up at the sky)?

My dog barks at leaves blowing across the driveway, so I doubt it.

wibskey · 08-02-2013, 10:56 PM

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