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Old 08-30-2012, 03:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Damn. There are so many good arguments here that I wish I could talk to you about this in person over a few drinks. I'll try to limit my response so it doesn't branch out into a bunch of fragmented points.

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Originally Posted by DaveNJ View Post
That's ultimately the issue with folks who worry about our society getting dumber. "Dumb" is a moving target. By continually holding ourselves to higher standards, the things that would not have been regarded as idiotic in the past become comparably worse.
I really like that point!

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The Idiocracy argument bothers me a lot because it's not supported by science, it implies that intelligence is purely heritable, and it leads to subtle advocacy for programs to counter the (nonexistent) problem.
It definitely comes off as an elitist argument and the "license to have babies" comment almost rolls off the tongue when making this argument. Let me clarify - I'm not trying to argue that someone shouldn't have kids, I'm arguing that people of means tend to not have children and I am encouraging them to have more children.

I've never had anyone counter this argument so you've given me something to think about. Having a high IQ is not a guarantee that you'll be a good parent and many people who aren't having children might be doing so for good reasons.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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It definitely comes off as an elitist argument and the "license to have babies" comment almost rolls off the tongue when making this argument. Let me clarify - I'm not trying to argue that someone shouldn't have kids, I'm arguing that people of means tend to not have children and I am encouraging them to have more children.

I've never had anyone counter this argument so you've given me something to think about. Having a high IQ is not a guarantee that you'll be a good parent and many people who aren't having children might be doing so for good reasons.
The inverse relationship between perceived intelligence and fertility is something that people consider to be problematic. However, it's worth noting that the matter isn't new, is, if anything, being mitigated by economic recession, and does not appear to generate long-term detrimental effects. I know you didn't advocate for the whole "license to have kids" thing, but it's a common canard that runs in tandem with Idiocracy.

The reasons why IQ and parenting "skill" tend to run in parallel seem to be at least partially rooted in economics. A rich parent simply has more parenting tools and capabilities, and it's much easier to raise kids with two or three times as much money, especially in the current climate where real wages are stagnant.

I think folks should have kids if they want to or not have them if they don't. "Smart" folks can talk themselves out of having children or find ways to intellectually justify having a dozen, but reproduction is such a basic human right that I find it best to stay out of people's business in this regard so long as our fertility/immigration tracks at above replacement rate.
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Old 08-31-2012, 09:47 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I wouldn't want my child to use the Bible for guidance in any way.
I read this and immediately remembered this picture.



"The pink tabs are for murder, purple for human or animal sacrifice, blue for rape, yellow for slavery, and green for misogyny."
Scumhook likes this.
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Old 08-31-2012, 02:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I read this and immediately remembered this picture.



"The pink tabs are for murder, purple for human or animal sacrifice, blue for rape, yellow for slavery, and green for misogyny."
That's a great picture, I've never seen it before. I'll remember it for next time I need to reference the Bible.
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Old 08-31-2012, 03:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I really enjoyed listening to this episode. Michael and Myq are fascinating conversationalists and I could have listened to them for hours. This is why I love my VIP.
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Old 08-31-2012, 03:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I really enjoyed listening to this episode. Michael and Myq are fascinating conversationalists and I could have listened to them for hours. This is why I love my VIP.
Thanks! I actually could have talked for hours =D

I love these topics and bouncing ideas around with Chemda and Myq was a lot of fun! I'm delighted that you enjoyed our conversation.
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Thanks! I actually could have talked for hours =D

I love these topics and bouncing ideas around with Chemda and Myq was a lot of fun! I'm delighted that you enjoyed our conversation.
Can international members sign up Michael?
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Old 08-31-2012, 04:57 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Can international members sign up Michael?
Yes, we accept international members at Atheists United and your support would be very much appreciated. There isn't much for you do see/do as an international member - right now - but I'm working on creating a secular forum on the site and also putting videos of our events there as well. As a member you'll be able to participate in the forums and watch the videos.

Atheists United - A positive atheist community for the greater Los Angeles area!
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Old 08-31-2012, 05:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Yes, we accept international members at Atheists United and your support would be very much appreciated. There isn't much for you do see/do as an international member - right now - but I'm working on creating a secular forum on the site and also putting videos of our events there as well. As a member you'll be able to participate in the forums and watch the videos.

Atheists United - A positive atheist community for the greater Los Angeles area!
Awesome Michael. I'd love to participate in a forum and read more widely about atheism. I'll consider a subscription for sure.
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Old 09-01-2012, 10:27 AM   #20 (permalink)
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It was great being on the show with Chemda and Myq!
I agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean from Australia View Post
I really enjoyed listening to this episode. Michael and Myq are fascinating conversationalists and I could have listened to them for hours.
Thanks! I liked doing the talking and am glad you enjoyed doing the listening!

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Originally Posted by MichaelApproved View Post
I love these topics and bouncing ideas around with Chemda and Myq was a lot of fun! I'm delighted that you enjoyed our conversation.
I am also delighted!

I have added nothing to the conversation! But it's a good one!

(I will say that I do think people without kids can still affect future generations in positive ways, sometimes BECAUSE they don't have kids and have more time to focus on whatever it is that is improving the world for other people's kids.)
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