32: Godless

[Sparrow]

one might could argue the single cell is, in fact, /more/ alive than the human infant, as the latter has yet the means of reproduction, making late stage abortion or infanticide the less ethically offensive option.

[Scumhook]

I wonder if a paramecium can tell blue from purple.

We may be able to build a case for retroactive abortion of colourblind people who are arseholes.

[myq]

Originally Posted by DJQuad

One last thing that definitely divides religion from non-religion is the debate of abortion.

If you've been following this thread, you know I'm definitely not religious. You don't have to be religious or even have any believe in any God to know that life begins at inception.

I feel that it's morally wrong to kill life, it really is as simple as that. What sucks is that I seem like bible-thumpers or a religious fanatic because of it.

You have to "kill life" to survive. Plants are alive. So even if you're vegan, you must kill life to to live. You would be dead if you weren't killing life regularly.

You're talking sentient human life. But you're not even. Because do you remember your life as a fetus? Probably not. There's no brain activity at the time of "inception." Or conception, I believe you mean. Because there's no brain. Only cells.

Up until months into a human pregnancy, the organism inside a human woman is essentially identical to that of a cow fetus, a dog fetus, a monkey fetus, any mammalian fetus. Mammal cells.

Are you a vegetarian?

I'm a vegan, and I know my life is still built on the death of other life. It's a cycle. I think we should do our best to minimize the suffering we cause other creatures, if they are creatures that can feel pleasure and pain.

The human fetus at the moment of conception is not such a creature. The more important characteristic of when something is alive in a meaningful and human way comes later. Consciousness and the capacity to feel pain. (Which again, animals feel and most people have no problem causing them pain and killing them for a variety of reasons.)

It's early and I have to run and this is a scattershot initial response, but just to recap, you can't be alive and not maintain your life without other things dying. You can try to minimize it, and that's great to do. But minimizing killing isn't the important thing even, to me; I believe minimizing unnecessary pain and suffering is much more important. (And a fetus in the womb is less capable of feeling pain than a more fully conscious older human, certainly up until a certain point. So the point of conception is not the most important one in a human's life, as far as determining when it meaningfully begins... Not to mention, as I understand it, conception is a PROCESS and there isn't one specific moment in time that CAN be pointed to. Science people?)

[Scumhook]

I wish I was Myka Fox.


Not because I want to be blonde, or to have tits, or to be a snappy razor-witted chick.


It's because she's had sex with Myq. That lucky bitch.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by myq

conception is a PROCESS and there isn't one specific moment in time that CAN be pointed to. Science people?)

i think this is subjective. for most people there's a cringe moment. mine is about 12 weeks. you've got the first trimester to figure your shit out while what's inside you is really and truly bundled cell tissue; it grows pretty rapidly. it's mostly about maturity for me in handling your life, but also extra-utero viability; necessary body fats don't even begin to accumulate until week 17. the 25th week, where the fetus can respond to sound thus displaying sensitivity, is another heartsquelch benchmark, but still that's our human empathy working because it still can't even physically breathe; its air sacs /begin/ the process to gain the ability to inflate at week 26.

the cool thing about gestation is our progression up the scale from cell to organism. the more time in utero, the more you as a human ratchet up the 'life' scale via structured organization (cell -> tissue -> organ -> system -> organism). the more organized, the more 'human' we appear to ourselves.

and let us remember, our perspective as humans and what that means to us as a species is significant. other species will eat their fully birthed young no probs.

here's some sweet source material:

Mayo Clinic In-Depth: Pregnancy

First Trimester Development by Week

Second Trimester Development by Week

Third Trimester Development by Week

[Sparrow]

did some more reading. this is the mayo clinic's definition of conception:

Conception typically occurs about two weeks after your last period begins. To calculate your due date, your health care provider will count ahead 40 weeks from the start of your last period. This means your period is counted as part of your pregnancy — even though you weren't pregnant at the time

-------

having a larger knowledge base than the web-o-sphere i'm gonna call complete and total bullshit on this one, Mayo. Ovulation occurs somewhere in the vicinity of 14 days after the onset of your last menses. mine does not. my cycle is somewhere around 40 days as opposed to the "standard" 28. doctors assume we all have 28 day cycles to make the numbers jive a little easier. it is not a real life portrayal of our women's bodies and the assertion that one is "pregnant" before becoming "pregnant" because it works out in a numbers game, is ludicrous and lazily informed.

conception, which i take them to mean when the sperm/egg gametes fuse, is only possible while the egg is in the fallopian tube. there's a literal 12-24 hour window a month. fun fact: sperm can already /be/ present and still kicking in the tube for up to five days prior. even then, our bodies get rid of those fertilized suckers all. the. time. it can take days and up to a week for it to implant into the uterine lining thereby beginning the growth process. sometimes, either the egg fails to implant or its just straight up shed by our bodies by what we go around assuming is a regular period. our ladies' bodies can tell if its just too jacked up without our cognizant awareness--'cause we're animals--or it just gets rid of them for the hell of it. my doing it consciously and with intent is no more morally reprehensible than my natural system.*

*to a point, i will concede, as i previously asserted.

[myq]

thanks for the informed informational info! sincerely appreciated!

[Sparrow]

knowledge turns me on.

tl;dr conception occurs when a fertilized egg implants itself into the uterine lining.

[myq]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

knowledge turns me on.

tl;dr conception occurs when a fertilized egg implants itself into the uterine lining.

Knowledge turning someone on turns me on.

Also, here's what Merriam-Webster says about conception:
Conception - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
"the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both."

I don't see how it could be implantation without fertilization, but I do see how it could be only fertilization. I think a lot of people believe that, that when the sperm fertilizes the egg (which itself is not a mere instant, not one specific moment in time), that is when conception occurs, but so many times after that happens, implantation does not occur.

But also again, the "moment" of conception is much less meaningful in any practical way than other later milestones of the actual creation of personhood. We agree! Some of us!

[Sparrow]

and since we're brainy people, let's take it a step further. i'm going to posit something outrageous: life isn't precious. in fact, life is common. life insists itself. our sentience, circulatory system, nerve networks, self-healing capabilities, inner monologues are all a-fug-mazing; we have a wonderfully complex and fascinating manifestation of life and when it takes it's really astounding, BUT men produce trillions of sperm over a lifetime and women ovulate every single month during our fertility--numbers that, in comparison to how many children she can support with the deterioration of her body through each pregnancy and the resources allowed after the birth of those children, are crazy disparate. we are built to lose a few. redundancy is a function in nature. the danger side of the science coin is its ability to cold strip the humanity out of humanity, but not believing every instance of life is sacred and has an innate right to be preserved is entirely valid.

insisting all of everyone's--no, not everyone's: women's--lower echelon cell bundles be brought to fruition isn't a victory. it's oppression.