32: Godless

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by myq

(I will say that I do think people without kids can still affect future generations in positive ways, sometimes BECAUSE they don't have kids and have more time to focus on whatever it is that is improving the world for other people's kids.)

Great point! Just because you're not raising your own child doesn't mean you're not working on making the world a better place for other adults and children.

This discussion thread has me rethinking the Idiocracy argument. Thanks!

[myq]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

Great point! Just because you're not raising your own child doesn't mean you're not working on making the world a better place for other adults and children.

This discussion thread has me rethinking the Idiocracy argument. Thanks!

Thank God for that!

[terror-lyn]

I did a quick count of the people in my research lab and of the 14 scientist here 3 are completely atheist. 6 including myself are somewhere in the middle, (agnositic, or non-beleivers but still participate in religious activiest at times). 5 are hard core Christians and go to service every Sunday. I will add that 3 of these Hardcore Christians are very young (one is actually an undergrad)

Here's an interesting link my PI referenced in our conversation

It would seem I’m a skeptic | The Tightrope

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by terror-lyn

I did a quick count of the people in my research lab and of the 14 scientist here 3 are completely atheist. 6 including myself are somewhere in the middle, (agnositic, or non-beleivers but still participate in religious activiest at times).

Which type of religious activities do you participate in? When you do participate, is it more for social reasons or for religious reasons? Meaning are you trying to pray and be closer to God or are you just going through the motions because it's tradition?

[terror-lyn]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

Which type of religious activities do you participate in? When you do participate, is it more for social reasons or for religious reasons? Meaning are you trying to pray and be closer to God or are you just going through the motions because it's tradition?

Yes, when I participate in Christian activities it is usually for social or traditional reasons. Like going to church on mothers day, or when invited for huge programs. I dont really go anymore for Christmas or Easter or anything like that. Its usually to support a program someones child is in, or a close family member. I still really enjoy the music, so Im more likey to go to a concert/choir performance more then a "service".

[stulagu]

good conversation...however...

the Bible never says the Jews build the pyramids...they were listed as slaves to the Egyptians

there is historical evidence of Jesus, and most of the historical people mentioned in the Bible can be found historically. The Romans, for example, had heard of someone causing problems in their middle eastern territories...some religious person challenging the authority of the priests. Or the fact that Nero called Christians by that name, there was someone called "Christ" that they assembled behind to have been given this name. There is evidence of "Christians" as a group as early as 100 AD...and Jesus' Jewish name, Yeshua (I think that is how it is spelled) is in early Jewish historian texts as well.

To put in context, Cleopatra only has a few references to herself from reliable historican sources...yet we know she existed. Her face was vandalized and wiped off of all Egyptian buildings, yet one bust, and a Roman coin with her face on it exsist as well as some writings. That is enough to accept she exsisted.

There is actually geographical evidence of a world wide flood. I'm not saying that the Biblical flood happened, but there is evidence that one did. So to say it is completely silly...that is going just as much in the other direction as the Christians go in theirs. There are some Christians that also think the flood was local (in Mesapotamia) but since that was all those people knew of the world, it was considered a world wide flood (maybe that is the source of the story, etc.).

And this is beside the fact that the Bible IS considered a verified historical document. Whether you believe it or not or think it is all made up, historians use it for reference material.

[BrianAlt]

Let's go with Jesus Christ existed as a person. I buy that. I don't think he was the Messiah. What does his existence mean?

And there isn't evidence of a world wide flood. There is evidence of a Middle Eastern flood. And to people that wrote the history, that was "the world". So I believe they believed there was a world wide flood.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Let's go with Jesus Christ existed as a person. I buy that. I don't think he was the Messiah. What does his existence mean?

And there isn't evidence of a world wide flood. There is evidence of a Middle Eastern flood. And to people that wrote the history, that was "the world". So I believe they believed there was a world wide flood.

I just wanted to make sure both sides stick with some sort of history...I'm not saying anyone has to think he is the Messiah, but I don't want the glib "there is no evidence he exsisted" thing.

From what I've read, there is evidence of flood around the same time in time all over the world...sediment and trees buried upright and fish bones even in near mountaintops...things like that.

[DWarrior]

Most likely, a historical Jesus would still have to be culturally Jewish anytime he visited his parents.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by terror-lyn

Yes, when I participate in Christian activities it is usually for social or traditional reasons. Like going to church on mothers day, or when invited for huge programs. I dont really go anymore for Christmas or Easter or anything like that. Its usually to support a program someones child is in, or a close family member. I still really enjoy the music, so Im more likey to go to a concert/choir performance more then a "service".

You initially described yourself as in the middle, between religious people and atheists. Don't you feel closer to agnosticism/atheism than religion?

Originally Posted by stulagu

the Bible never says the Jews build the pyramids...they were listed as slaves to the Egyptians

It's often misconceived that the Jews did build the pyramids due to religious teachings. It may not be written in the bible (thank you for that clarification) but it was taught in my Hebrew school.

Originally Posted by stulagu

there is historical evidence of Jesus

Please provide evidence for this that doesn't cite the Bible as a source.

Originally Posted by stulagu

and most of the historical people mentioned in the Bible can be found historically. The Romans, for example, had heard of someone causing problems in their middle eastern territories...some religious person challenging the authority of the priests. Or the fact that Nero called Christians by that name, there was someone called "Christ" that they assembled behind to have been given this name.

Many works of fiction include real places and other historical elements. The movie Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter references Confederate forces by that name, that doesn't make the story true.

The Bible is a mishmosh of half true stories and completely made up stories loosely based on some historical elements. It is not a source for historical evidence anymore than Abraham Lincoln Vampire Hunter is. It can not be used as a reliable source of historical information.

Vague sources outside of the Bible that refer to somewhat similar events from the Bible does not equal evidence that stories from the Bible are true.

Originally Posted by stulagu

There is evidence of "Christians" as a group as early as 100 AD...and Jesus' Jewish name, Yeshua (I think that is how it is spelled) is in early Jewish historian texts as well.

Please cite a source that claims Jesus existed which isn't biblical or religious.

Originally Posted by stulagu

To put in context, Cleopatra only has a few references to herself from reliable historican sources...yet we know she existed. Her face was vandalized and wiped off of all Egyptian buildings, yet one bust, and a Roman coin with her face on it exsist as well as some writings. That is enough to accept she exsisted.

The key word here is "reliable". Cleopatra is referenced by reliable sources, the bible is not a reliable source.

Originally Posted by stulagu

There is actually geographical evidence of a world wide flood. I'm not saying that the Biblical flood happened, but there is evidence that one did. So to say it is completely silly...

No, there is no evidence of such a flood. It is completely silly.

Originally Posted by stulagu

And this is beside the fact that the Bible IS considered a verified historical document. Whether you believe it or not or think it is all made up, historians use it for reference material.

Please cite examples where historians use it for historical reference.

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Let's go with Jesus Christ existed as a person. I buy that.

Why would you even buy that part of the story? There's simply no reliable evidence for such a claim. I can see how the story has been repeated as true so many times that it's difficult to shake it off but try and find non biblical eventide that he existed.

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

And there isn't evidence of a world wide flood. There is evidence of a Middle Eastern flood.

I don't think there's evidence of a Middle Eastern flood of this magnitude.

Originally Posted by stulagu

I just wanted to make sure both sides stick with some sort of history...I'm not saying anyone has to think he is the Messiah, but I don't want the glib "there is no evidence he exsisted" thing.

It's not glib to ask for evidence and challenge unsubstantiated claims.

Originally Posted by stulagu

From what I've read, there is evidence of flood around the same time in time all over the world...sediment and trees buried upright and fish bones even in near mountaintops...things like that.

Where did you read that?