32: Godless

[andyoureuglytoo]

Listening to this episode, Michael's passion for this topic was off-putting.

I am an atheist and think that everything in the universe has scientific answer. I agree that much that is done in the name of religion is downright terrible.

But I do think spirituality has a place at the table–*as much as poetry has place in literature. Myth, stories and "the hero's journey" are nothing more than the poetry of our culture. They may not be perfect historical records or but they provide an enduring lens through which to view the cultures that created them and ourselves.

They have a particular place in our psyches, both individually and collectively. The problem comes when people take them as historical fact and dogmatic truth.

A brain like mine will probably never understand the quantum mechanics in the creation of the universe. Nor do I want to study quantum mechanics in order to understand the nature of the universe. I, personally, have other work to do. So, to me (and probably the majority of the people out there) quantum mechanics is ineffable. Instead, I have a collection metaphors that will help me understand the universe, my place in it and my eventual departure from it.

I don't think scientists yet completely understand exactly how we got here, where we are going and the why of all it. Even if they did, no one would be able to answer definitively for the entire human race and all of existence: "what's the point?"

But these stories help me grasp that.

Now, I don't think the point is a magical cloud wonderland somewhere. I don't think anything happens when we die except that our atoms get spread throughout the universe. In a completely positive way that I can't share via a message board ,because it sounds so dark and hopeless, I think that the entire toil and struggle of the human race is pointless. Nothing we do matters. In the long term, grand-scheme of the universe, we are nothing but a miniscule blip. Even if we continue to last hundreds of millions of years, the universe is so big and vast that it doesn't matter. Plus you've got the whole "cosmic crunch" theory that accompanies the big bang. So everything in existence will just be condensed back into non-existence anyway.

Also, spirituality doesn't make me what to give up or stop searching and exploring the universe. That would be silly. But one single person will not know everything. The almost trance-like state Kyle and I experience during movement training, Stephen Hawking won't be able understand in a completely visceral way... to him, it's ineffable. Maybe that's "God" to him. (Even if he wouldn't conceive of it that way himself.) Maybe "God" is just that which we can't comprehend...the ineffable.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by Abby

This conversation is very indepth...

Firstly I very much liked the point Michael made about Religion not being the cause of wars, etc, but merely the tool used by a person to get people (who are guillable most of the time) to follow them.

Thank you. It was my brother Andrew who brought that to my attention.

Originally Posted by Abby

Proof Jesus did exsist: I read a book called the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. Apparently this man was an athiest who's wife had converted to Christianity. He used his skills as a court reporter to put the Evidence that Jesus exisited "onto the stand" and see how it holds up.

Though there can be no evidence for or against God (or the fact that Jesus was God), the fact that Jesus existed holds up by Christian and Atheist scientists.

Luke was a Historian (the book of Luke) in the book, the geographical and historical information was accurate. Also, Jesus is mentioned outside of the New testiment and bible. Josephus was a first-century Jewish Historian who's writings mention James and Jesus.

"He convened a meeting of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having trangressed the law and delivered them up to be stoned" - The Antiquities by Josephus. This information was provided by Edwin M Yamauchi, PHD

Proof outside of religious text. Is this enough to be taken as fact?

The existence of Jesus and the story of Jesus are two different things. It's possible that a man named Jesus did exist but it's likely that everyone wrote the history through their own prism and embellished a lot.

This debate is beyond my abilities but Richard Carrier is a well respected author in the atheist community. He wrote a book that deals with the subject of the historical Jesus

Proving History: Bayes's Theorem and the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Richard Carrier: 9781616145590: Amazon.com: Books

From the book description: "Almost all experts agree that the Jesus of the Bible is a composite of myth, legend, and some historical evidence. So what can we know about the real Jesus? For more than one hundred fifty years, scholars have attempted to answer this question. Unfortunately, the "Quest for the Historical Jesus" has produced as many different images of the original Jesus as the scholars who have studied the subject. The result is a confused mass of disparate opinions with no consensus view of what actually happened at the dawn of Christianity."

Originally Posted by Abby

But you have to admit there may be a chance that there is something bigger than you, that you don't understand, somewhere that can be classified as what we named "God"

Of course there is something bigger than me out there and there are many things that I don't understand. However, the chance of there being something classified as what we named "God" is so miniscule that it's not worth recognition. "God" is a man made concept.

It's OK to have unanswered questions. The desire to create a god tends to come from the desire to have questions answered. It's OK. There are many questions that haven't been answered and that's OK. We don't need to invent a god to answer those questions for us.

Originally Posted by Abby

When Chemda was talking about that "magical feeling" she thinks people call God. I have a theory that there is ONE God, throughout all religion, and people are getting the message different. And Atheists

With respect, your theory is not based on any evidence or facts. It's purely the work of imagination. Why ONE god? Why not a whole race? Why does the God have to still be alive? These are rhetorical questions because the answers would be irrelevant since they would be based purely on your imagination.

Originally Posted by Abby

I'd like to know why you think the Dead Sea Scrolls are not credible enough to be taken historically accurate?

I don't know enough about the DSS to give you an answer but I do know that biblical books tend to be filled with propaganda, fictitious stories and embellishments. So much so that they cannot be considered reputable sources.

Originally Posted by Abby

Also - the Big Bang Theory... why can't I believe in everything science has proven? My God made science. My God created the universe (through the big bang?) and he put life on earth (and possibly used evolution?)

Your God only exists in your mind. Everything you credit your God with doing is based purely on your imagination.

Science speculates that a "Big Bang" happened billions of years ago. You choose to take that scientific concept and attribute it to a god.

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by andyoureuglytoo

But I do think spirituality has a place at the table–*as much as poetry has place in literature. Myth, stories and "the hero's journey" are nothing more than the poetry of our culture.

To you, they are nothing more. To the people who believe, they are reasonable concepts that are taken literally. Taking wild stories literally, such as the ones that are in the bible, can be harmful. The ability to reason is impaired.

Originally Posted by andyoureuglytoo

They may not be perfect historical records or but they provide an enduring lens through which to view the cultures that created them and ourselves.

I don't have a problem with that.

Originally Posted by andyoureuglytoo

They have a particular place in our psyches, both individually and collectively. The problem comes when people take them as historical fact and dogmatic truth.

Agreed.

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

Of course there is something bigger than me out there and there are many things that I don't understand. However, the chance of there being something classified as what we named "God" is so miniscule that it's not worth recognition. "God" is a man made concept.

It's OK to have unanswered questions. The desire to create a god tends to come from the desire to have questions answered. It's OK. There are many questions that haven't been answered and that's OK. We don't need to invent a god to answer those questions for us.

Thank fuck for all that.

Moar to come...

[Scumhook]

OK Mike, you happy heathen, got some shit for you...

Firstly, no question that religion is bullshit. Well, it's not bullshit, it's politics and it's evil and it's fucked. If you want to quote me on that, make sure you spell my name right

This ep seemed to focus more on how the bible is a nice book and that religion is shit. No argument on either point, but it would have been good to hear you really get into it with a confirmed agnostic. Maybe Chemmo (or Hemmo, as I will refer to her from now on) could do a show around that. There seems to be a fair bit of interest within the KATG community re this.

You lack the arrogance to state that you are absolutely correct in your beliefs. That’s good, because from what I can see, you’re basically choosing to believe in a set of values, which doesn’t appear to differ that much from the religious nuts choosing to believe in their god(s). You’re not sticking a label on a nice white man in the sky, but you do leave room for the possibility of their being an unknown entity or power or whatever being out there. If I choose to call that entity “God” or “Yahweh” or “Scumhook”, and you choose to call that entity “unknown”, then are we so different?

Also, you believe that we cease to exist when we die. Given that there is no scientific evidence for anything in this area, how can you reach any conclusion? Wouldn’t the more logical position be “I don’t fucking know”? Your position of cessation of existence is just as logical as my “fucked if I know, but I hope it’s something good”. Your point in the show about wanting something to be true not making it true is a fair one, and was noted for the record.

I’m not arguing to be a dick (fuck knows, I have plenty of other ways I overachieve in that area). I haven’t really looked at atheism before, and here seemed as good a place as any to start.

[Scumhook]

[MichaelApproved]

Originally Posted by Scumhook

Also, you believe that we cease to exist when we die. Given that there is no scientific evidence for anything in this area, how can you reach any conclusion? Wouldn’t the more logical position be “I don’t fucking know”? Your position of cessation of existence is just as logical as my “fucked if I know, but I hope it’s something good”. Your point in the show about wanting something to be true not making it true is a fair one, and was noted for the record.

Not sure I was able to fully articulate what I believed on the show. Here's what I think happens to us after we die: nothing.

No, I'm not 100% sure because it's not possible to know since no one has come back to confirm. However, you can deduce and come up with educated speculation based on the facts we know. All the laws of nature, that we know of, point to the body decaying and the life ceasing to exist.

I choose to follow a straight line of reasoning that says death follows the laws of nature, just like everything else. Yes, it's possible that our incomplete understanding of the universe allows for something else to happen but I believe we have enough of an understanding around the laws that govern death that it's pretty much a certainty that nothing happens.

I think that believing that something happens after death has more to do with wish fulfillment than reality. There's no evidence whatsoever in a spirit or that life continues past the death of the body. I wish life did continue past the death of the body but wishing doesn't make it true.

[BrianAlt]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

Here's what I think happens to us after we die: nothing.

I have to agree. Well, not NOTHING. I mean we decay and become part of the earth. And then whatever happens to that earth after that.

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

I choose to follow a straight line of reasoning that says death follows the laws of nature, just like everything else. Yes, it's possible that our incomplete understanding of the universe allows for something else to happen but I believe we have enough of an understanding around the laws that govern death that it's pretty much a certainty that nothing happens.

You choose to believe in something that you have no evidence for - this sounds like faith... Albeit faith based on reasoning.

When we die, our bodies stop moving around and donate their energy into worm food. The energy within us is neither created nor destroyed - why couldn't our "soul" (for want of a better word) also follow this principle?

Originally Posted by MichaelApproved

I think that believing that something happens after death has more to do with wish fulfillment than reality. There's no evidence whatsoever in a spirit or that life continues past the death of the body. I wish life did continue past the death of the body but wishing doesn't make it true.

Agree. I don't know if "we" continue after death, and if we do, in what form.

I just don't fucking know.

[Bucho]

Originally Posted by Scumhook

When we die, our bodies stop moving around and donate their energy into worm food. The energy within us is neither created nor destroyed - why couldn't our "soul" (for want of a better word) also follow this principle?

It does follow the same principle. Worms eat the soul too.