1130: Really, Keith?

[spooky]

Originally Posted by invader

I agree with Keith, she deserved to get taken out in cuffs. Also getting taken out in cuffs sounds like taking disciplinary action if you ask me. You don't want your kid to be taken out in handcuffs stop writing on desks. I'm not saying its not harsh, but harsh works.

If a kid does something worse, what do you do? Is there a really low bar set where all punishment is equal, being arrested?

If that's the case, wouldn't you think it'll be all of a week before kids figure out that if the teacher busts them in a skirt that's an inch too short, they may as well curb stomp the bitch, it's the same punishment.

When getting arrested for little violations in school becomes common place, when kids don't fear it the same way they don't fear detention(god help us when the kids don't fear cops!), where do you go from there to keep order?

What affect will this have on the "institutionalizing" phenomenon among black youths?

It seems like if Keith already crosses the street from scary black folk at night, where will he be in 12 years if his hypothetical heavy handed "Keith's Justice, for kids!" were to take place?

[Keith]

Yes, the kid might as well have killed the school faculty. The punishment would still have been that she would have been placed in handcuffs and walked over to the jail across the street for a second and then returned to class.

[spooky]

Originally Posted by Keith

Yes, the kid might as well have killed the school faculty. The punishment would still have been that she would have been placed in handcuffs and walked over to the jail across the street for a second and then returned to class.

Being arrested was all I was talking about. She WAS arrested, regardless of cooler heads prevailing after the fact. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were on the side of the cooler heads, I interpreted what you said as being on the side of arresting for low level offenses.

[Keith]

You think she was almost put in the slammer?

[TheArchitect]

The only way your arguement makes any sense, Keith, is if you actually believe there is no other effective and time/cost efficient punishment. This is similar to Spooky's arguement, but if teachers used police involvment (albeit innocent and not truly threatening) for every tiny infraction such as this, they would no longer be seen as a legitimate authority figure. I'm speaking from first-hand classroom experience. Any and all discipline must come from the teacher directly in order to maintain the necessary boundaries. As soon as a teacher uses an outside method to discipline (other teachers, authority figures, empty threats, bargaining) they lose all control and authoritative power over the students.

Schools are not only teaching institutions, they raise children more than parents in many cases. Your social understanding and behaviors, Keith, are in large part due to your experience in school. Teachers' actions or lack thereof define the way in which students perceive the world and eventually act as adults.

The bottom line is that appropriate punishment and authority are necessary for a teacher to do their primary (though not singular) job, which is to teach students. Any deviation from that will deteriorate the entire process/institution.

[invader]

So what are the schools options when detention/suspension doesn't work? If taking this girl out in handcuffs does work, then job well done. If it doesn't, then they are no worse off than they started.

[spooky]

Originally Posted by Keith

You think she was almost put in the slammer?

As I said, cooler heads prevailed after the arrest. That isn't your stance, though. Unless you want some special handling of these kids after the arrest, I assume any arrested kid would get processed the same as any other.

What do you want, some kiddie version of the drunk tank?

Originally Posted by invader

So what are the schools options when detention/suspension doesn't work? If taking this girl out in handcuffs does work, then job well done. If it doesn't, then they are no worse off than they started.

Expulsion, a social worker, alternative schools, further up the ladder, the police.

But that doesn't hold much weight, as largely, detention/suspension does work in most cases.

[siric]

Originally Posted by spooky

If a kid does something worse, what do you do? Is there a really low bar set where all punishment is equal, being arrested?

If that's the case, wouldn't you think it'll be all of a week before kids figure out that if the teacher busts them in a skirt that's an inch too short, they may as well curb stomp the bitch, it's the same punishment.

When getting arrested for little violations in school becomes common place, when kids don't fear it the same way they don't fear detention(god help us when the kids don't fear cops!), where do you go from there to keep order?

What affect will this have on the "institutionalizing" phenomenon among black youths?

It seems like if Keith already crosses the street from scary black folk at night, where will he be in 12 years if his hypothetical heavy handed "Keith's Justice, for kids!" were to take place?

Low bar my ass. The girl knew it was wrong. She "thought she would get in trouble, but not arrested." When a kid knows something is wrong and still does it, then its time to crank up the punishment a few notches. Guess who won't be writing on desks anymore? Anybody who saw a 12 year old girl dragged out of the room in handcuffs for writing on one.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by invader

So what are the schools options when detention/suspension doesn't work?

First of all, they would have to use these methods first to know if they would be effective or not. My understanding of the story was that using the police was the first action taken.

Originally Posted by invader

If taking this girl out in handcuffs does work, then job well done. If it doesn't, then they are no worse off than they started.

By taking the girl out in handcuffs, the teacher loses respect from other students, and WILL have greater behavioral issues because the teacher is seen as not being able to handle it themselves.

If it doesn't work, do we now go back and try all the myriad punishments we skipped by using police action initially? I don't think the student that did not respond to the police is even qualified (mentally, socially) to be in school at all.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by siric

Guess who won't be writing on desks anymore? Anybody who saw a 12 year old girl dragged out of the room in handcuffs for writing on one.

Guess who won't be attempting to have sex with 13 year old children anymore? Anyone who has seen Dateline NBC's To Catch a Predator...oh wait, most of them have seen the show and understand the consequences. Also, many of them have actually been on the show multiple times.