1130: Really, Keith?

[ThisIsMyUserName]

Over time I've noticed Keith's all or nothing attitude has gone from somewhat lighthearted to really dark and extreme. From something as small as a movie, where some small part of an otherwise entertaining film makes the whole thing shit and anyone who watches it an idiot, to thinking it's ok to arrest a 12 year old for drawing on a desk.

I'm not sure if there has been some change, or if I'm just noticing it more now, but it's really disturbing. Almost everything should be judged on a case by case basis. For an otherwise good kid with a conscience, discipline could have simply been keeping her a minute after class and giving her a disappointed look with some stern words.

Every time a situation is brought up where Keith thinks someone else should be arrested or killed, the point is made that he's been guilty of the same offense at one point. His response is that if the punishment was so extreme, he wouldn't have done it. Where do you draw the line? At what point is life made so miserable that you've made a world you don't want to live in?

You've had loud parties and are glad the neighbors don't complain. What if they called the cops and there was a noise ordinance? Is getting arrested for that reasonable? Or is it enough to have a neighbor, or even the police, knock on your door and say, "Hey, don't be a jerk, quiet down."?

Teachers and police are people too. They do things "wrong" like litter or speed or play music too loud from time to time. It doesn't hurt anyone and in the grand scheme of things, who cares? Unless someone is hurt physically, financially, or seriously emotionally, society is capable of policing itself. The growing separation of authority figures from "normal" people is getting frightening. I think we really need to think about the next step, and the step after that.

When you're talking about arresting a 12 year old, I think people have already gone too far.

[siric]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Guess who won't be attempting to have sex with 13 year old children anymore? Anyone who has seen Dateline NBC's To Catch a Predator...oh wait, most of them have seen the show and understand the consequences. Also, many of them have actually been on the show multiple times.

Yeah, let's compare 12-year-olds to kid-touchers. Good point, Spooky II

[invader]

If being dragged out in handcuffs doesn't work, I think it would be safe to assume that detention wouldn't have worked in the first place.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by siric

Yeah, let's compare 12-year-olds to kid-touchers. Good point, Spooky II

Both 12 year olds and kid-touchers are humans. When left to behave with no obvious authority figure and a looming punishment which may or may not happen in their minds, humans almost always react the same way. Just as in the above post with the situation about playing loud music. Most people know that doing so could yield them a large fine or even being arrested depending on the situation. However, most people (including myself) still do it in hopes that the cop will simply give a warning.

If asked hypothetically if people would be heavily fined/arrested if they played loud music, would they still choose to do it, most would answer "no". The truth is people don't really believe it will happen. Even in a grim-trigger, Keith's Justice world, there is still the chance that people would not be seen by a cop, and would still commit crimes.

[EthanK]

Can I point something out to Chemda's claim that this girl is "an innocent 12 year old girl":



Maybe it's just me but give this girl a year, +1 cup size, and a fake ID and she has full potential to ruin a man's life.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by invader

If being dragged out in handcuffs doesn't work, I think it would be safe to assume that detention wouldn't have worked in the first place.

You're reducing your sole punishment to using police force. Do you not think you would find out very quickly that a student is not responsive to traditional punishments? Your litmus test is to use an exorbitant amount of effort (in reality every student doing something of this nature could not be handled in this way, it is logistically impossible) so that you save the time of using traditional punishments.

What is the downside of using traditional, less severe and wasteful (not to mention detrimental to the teacher's ability to control other students) in the first place?

[RachaelBachael]

The reason the girl being arrested is so absurd is because it is not the "norm".

This is like Keith's Justice. If the girl knew she would go to jail she wouldn't have written on the desk, but if you go into any classroom every single desk will have some sort of writing on it. Obviously the other students were not getting arrested for it. Saying that the girl is in the wrong for doodling on the desk and deserved to be arrested is ridiculous.

Many times on the show Keith you have talked about your "shenanigans" at school. One I remember clearly was you putting a pencil on a girl's seat so she would sit on it. If you had suddenly been arrested after that of course you would have been shocked.

You also spoke about a news story where a teacher cut off a black girl's braid and was not fired and you argued that she should have been. It seems like to you teachers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they enforce punishments the "correct" way of either issuing detentions or referring to their superiors (administrators) they're not doing their job because they'll be cleaning desks. But if they take punishments into their own hands they need to be fired.

The teacher did not whip out her cell phone and call the police, an administrator who knew the rules of the school and school system called them. The article also says that this has been happening a lot in NY schools so maybe they are trying to crack down on minor offenses so it is a lot easier to punish students who commit major ones. Queens girl Alexa Gonzalez hauled out of school in handcuffs after getting caught doodling on desk


She's 12, she wasn't being racist, writing a suicide note, or planning to bomb the school.

Why do your tax dollars have to go to arresting 12 year olds who write on desks about loving their friends instead of being used to stop littering and murderers. Shouldn't you be pissed the cops accepted the call?

[Keith]

Why can't the teacher just sit down with the student and have a nice conversation one-on-one with her? Explain why what she does was wrong, and then the child can learn and grow from that. How exactly should the teacher do it? The proper way, of course.

Why can't people just talk anymore? Usually that's all it takes.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by Keith

Why can't the teacher just sit down with the student and have a nice conversation one-on-one with her? Explain why what she does was wrong, and then the child can learn and grow from that. How exactly should the teacher do it? The proper way, of course.

Why can't people just talk anymore? Usually that's all it takes.

This point doesn't make any sense. Although it's sarcasm, the bulk of these arguments (mine included) are not claiming to sit and talk to students exclusively.

There are many extremely strong points that have been made, and the fact that you didn't address them (or your previous back-and-forth with Spooky) indicates that you have no response to counter them.

Sitting and talking is, indeed, a behavioral correction that is used on lower elementary students. 12 year olds fall under a different set of punishments, the most extreme of which is the use of police. You don't understand how punishment works.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by TheArchitect

There are many extremely strong points that have been made, and the fact that you didn't address them indicates that you have no response to counter them.

You don't understand how punishment works.

Yes I do?