1235: Copywrong

[Omni]

I had to read Tess of the d'Urbervilles in my English class in high school. I started reading it and it was so boring and hard to follow (prior to this class I liked almost every book I was assigned to read). I told my friend this, and she had no idea why I didn't like it. She thought it was amazing, because it was just one horrible event after another. Every chapter is literally "how can Tess become more miserable than she already was?". I had given up reading the book because I wasn't following what was happening in it in the first few chapters, but once my friend explained all the hilariously terrible things happening to Tess, I realized that if it had been written by someone else, I probably would have loved it.

I never finished reading it, I just got through the class by reading summaries online. On top of that, I looked around on youtube and found a series of videos made by some Taiwanese students in an English class who made a short film of the book for an assignment. Even though they had pretty good English, some of the lines from that video have stuck with me far longer than the actual plot of the book. To this day when something goes wrong with me or one of my friends from that class, someone will inevitably say "oh no it cannot be true it is all my fault".

On a similar note, I absolutely hate Pride and Prejudice because of this same class. I legitimately tried to read it. I tried very hard. However, someone forgot to teach Jane Austen how to describe people and places and events. I cannot remember a single detail about this book and I read about a third of it before I gave up.

On the other hand, I loved Lord of the Flies. I did have to read it for class, but the actual assignment was that we had to pick a "classic" book to read and then share it with the class. I liked this assignment quite a bit because it meant actually getting to read a book I wanted to read instead of one I had to. Limiting it to classics (the teacher had to approve of your choice) meant that you couldn't just go read some short piece of trash, but it also meant that you weren't stuck struggling through something that was boring the shit out of you and making you hate reading for the rest of your life.

(we also had to read wuthering heights, which i also remember nothing about except for this)

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by myq

Here's why I think you are wrong, person I normally agree with..

Mutual respect is also built on disagreements.

Originally Posted by myq

Number one, who's Nick Madson? Sincerely never heard of him...

He's the guy who was accused of Joke Theft by Patton Oswalt. I was trying to create a dystopian scenario, where in the future a known theft became a superstar.

Originally Posted by myq

Number two, Mencia is clearly a thief and everyone knows and believes it and even your joking attitude recognizes that that is unlikely to change.
Number three, Cook will always be tainted by these accusations, rightly or wrongly, and while he may be considered a genius by a few, likely he will go the way of Dice Clay (considered a genius by a Keith), continuing to work and be himself, an original character that the world cared a lot about once and a little about the rest of the time....

I wouldnt be sure of that. After he released his last special/Cd "Isolated incident", where he tried to tone down the physical comedy and do tradtional jokes (without being even remotely funny), he gained even more respect. If i caught even a glimpse of his personality on Maron's interview with him, he's "hurt" by the accusations but he's also enough self-absorbed and satisfied by his own success that he shrugs them off.

I see him being still a well selling comic that uses those accusations to cry about them in documentaries, like Carrot Top does. I picture him doin' a roast and making it generally acceptable.

Originally Posted by myq

Number four, main point: saying something similar to that which someone else says is not necessarily thievery. That's my point. Which I believe you understand. As a comedy fan, you MUST know that parallel thinking and joke creation occurs. I know that you know. I've seen it happen. I've experienced it happening. ....

I can perfectly see how a concept you hear can be made into a joke that eventually returns. That's why the "Airline food" stuff happens. The topic arent infinite and not every comedian has enough style or substance to turn 'em into something new.

But in Cook's case the jokes are told in a similar structure, with similar punchlines and timing (i noticed that especially in the kid naming and car accident ones, more than the itchy asshole one). And yeah, he might say that he was actually inspired by Steve Martin, but the structure is the same of Louie's jokes.

As much as you consider parallele thinking, similar sources of inspiration, and occasionally recurring wording... Those jokes are exactly the same and the fact that they all come from the same source is suspicious....

Dennis Leary denied that too. He happened to be doing jokes on Jim Fitz that sounded much like Hicks' jokes. And people still believe it and say "well it'0s a coincidence". It feels naive to me. Youcomedians hang at each other's show. You know each other. Wouldnt you be at least surpised if someone came up with a joke about "Yaybies" after seeing your show?

They could say they coincidentally had the same idea, and that wordplay is not your exclusive...

Originally Posted by myq

Sometimes, does it occur as a result of someone subconsciously absorbing the work of another comedian, forgetting about it, and then writing a similar joke much later that they believe to be original? Quite likely. Is that as bad as taking something outright and consciously? No. Is something like one of those at play here with Dane Cook? Possibly, and if so, I'd say more likely the former.

It's about the psychology of the person. Listening to Maron's interviews and hearing stories about Carlos, he seems to be a sociopath who takes the work of others with no remorse. Listening to interviews with Dane and hearing stories about him, I don't get anything like that from him..

I'll judge according to the two WTF shows they did with Maron.

Carlos is by his own definition an angry bully who would do anything to succeed and did any dirty trick in the book to do it. He stole time from comedians, attacked them verbally and physically, threatened them, backstabbed them. He also doesnt do any writing.

Dane is an energetic and very neurotic guy who in his own words "would do anything for a laugh, even the worst stuff", who doesnt feel friendly with other comics, has a bad attitude, is very brash and aggressive out of self defense, isnt good at writing and is more about the delivery and had the balls to try and plug his own coffee brand on Maron's show. He might paint himself as a nice guy, and i dont know him personally but those traits seem similar to me.

Originally Posted by myq

That's all. I don't think the future of comedy integrity is based in accusing every person who says something similar to another of being a thief. There's a LOT of comedy history, especially now with the internet and as many CDs and clips and videos that there are now--NO ONE can see everything that there is, and the odds that two people come up with a similar idea (what with there being more people and more ideas) keeps increasing, so I think it's worth erring on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt, until they prove that they don't deserve it.

No, the future of comedy integrity isnt based on accusations but the increasing forgetfulness and indifference of the public towards the matter isnt good either.

I see it as the same issue behinf musical plagiarism. Some plagiarization are open and become a big case. Yet some dont and get ignored. A lot of people say that music is just made of notesand that plagiarism is a coiuncidence, it "might just happen" and while there's some truth in that, i think that allowing this to be the common reaction to when it happens makes people (who already are indifferent) more accepting. It makes it "not a big deal".

And i see comics in my country who listen to foreign comedians and repeat their routiones verbatim, translated in another language. When the issue comes up, they say it's an "hommage".

I think it's just disrespectful and kinda sad.

[JSZilla]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Has a really long winded discussion with Myq that has JSZilla so enamored and interested he has followed it all and will continue too.

I don't know who to agree with more I'm torn, or root for for that matter...Go both of you? =(

Originally Posted by myq

Please check my work!

I did!! AND YOU DID NOT CARRY THE FOUR!! But what the fuck do I know I couldn't pass Geometry to save my life. But what I do know, is I know aaaaall about carrying the four and you sir, DID NOT!

Your still my Last Comic Standing.

[Space Indaver]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with puns. That is all.

[Junkenstein]

Originally Posted by JSZilla

I don't know who to agree with more I'm torn, or root for for that matter...Go both of you? =(

Agree with me but support myq.

He's the smarter and funnier of the two and i dont have his comedic talent. I'm just mouthy.

[Blitzgal]

Thankfully, the Skinwich is a hoax.

The Stew: KFC Skinwich hoax gets readers salivating, groaning

[Junkenstein]

Wow, the Victor call-in was GREAT.

I am so gonna watch the Expendables.

[Thumbnail]

I laughed so hard with the joke about the half armless greeter! That was brilliant!

[myq]

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

The topic arent infinite and not every comedian has enough style or substance to turn 'em into something new.

But in Cook's case the jokes are told in a similar structure, with similar punchlines and timing (i noticed that especially in the kid naming and car accident ones, more than the itchy asshole one). And yeah, he might say that he was actually inspired by Steve Martin, but the structure is the same of Louie's jokes.

No, the future of comedy integrity isnt based on accusations but the increasing forgetfulness and indifference of the public towards the matter isnt good either.

I see it as the same issue behinf musical plagiarism. Some plagiarization are open and become a big case. Yet some dont and get ignored. A lot of people say that music is just made of notesand that plagiarism is a coiuncidence, it "might just happen" and while there's some truth in that, i think that allowing this to be the common reaction to when it happens makes people (who already are indifferent) more accepting. It makes it "not a big deal".

And i see comics in my country who listen to foreign comedians and repeat their routiones verbatim, translated in another language. When the issue comes up, they say it's an "hommage".

I think it's just disrespectful and kinda sad.

It definitely is.
But we don't disagree on the facts. We just disagree on how we (or others?) should respond when we don't have all the facts. And we disagree on some interpretations of some of the facts. See? Simple! We mostly agree.

We agree that stealing is wrong and reprehensible. (Case in point: your guy who translates as an "homage" but is just getting paid to repeat the work of others. Bad. Worth a lot of outrage.)

We agree that parallel thinking happens, and that that is not at all reprehensible, unless the parallel thinking began after one of the parallel thinkers saw the other person originate the parallel thinking (way back when the parallel lines met at negative infinity, math folks).

As far as Denis Leary goes, I believe you are incorrect--most people who know about comedy fully believe that he took from Hicks, either specific jokes, concepts, or at least his essence and attitude. Do most civilians care? No. But most people don't even know Leary as a comedian anymore. He's a TV star, and since he's not doing much stand-up, I don't think people need to boycott his show (which I enjoy well enough) or anything.

As far as Cook goes, I fully grant it's possible that he saw Louis do some of his jokes and internalized them (which is shitty), but it really doesn't seem like a pattern at all (thus not worth any outrage, especially when the "wronged" party isn't outraged), just given the sheer volume of the work he's put out that is clearly original. His character and his delivery and his topics and his style, I stand by the idea that he's really an innovator of it all.

So I'm not saying people shouldn't be outraged, but they shouldn't be outraged just because someone says they should. I'm for people reasonably examining whatever evidence there is, as you've done, and drawing their own conclusions. Just because you think he's deliberately stolen and I think it's accidental or coincidental, doesn't mean the future of comedy integrity is kaput. (And have you looked at the poll? People are more on your side than mine, so I think playing the reasonable devil's advocate from MY side of things is worthwhile in this situation. So, whoever was on the fence, join my side, help even out the tug of war situation.)

Originally Posted by JSZilla

I don't know who to agree with more I'm torn, or root for for that matter...Go both of you? =(

I did!! AND YOU DID NOT CARRY THE FOUR!! But what the fuck do I know I couldn't pass Geometry to save my life. But what I do know, is I know aaaaall about carrying the four and you sir, DID NOT!

Your still my Last Comic Standing.

Thanks for writing! My favorite part is that this math issue has nothing to do with geometry. Now hold on while I come full circle...*

Originally Posted by Space Indaver

There is absolutely nothing wrong with puns. That is all.

Well, that's an oh-pun and shut case then.
(Copyright whoever will take it.)



* "Come full circle" was not meant to be a pun at first, but now it is. Enjoy your own meaning.

PS Dane Cook comes vicious circle.

[DWarrior]

Originally Posted by myq

By the way, how do I go about copyrighting this "copyright Myq Kaplan" thing?

using math!



copyright Myq Kaplan