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Old 03-08-2011, 11:09 PM   #41 (permalink)
myq
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Originally Posted by Blitzgal View Post
I think historically chemical castration has not been very effective in stopping these people from raping children, so I don't have much faith that providing something to get them aroused and riled up would do any better. And how do we know about these magical pedophiles who never act on their impulses? Again, if they participate in the underground market for kiddie porn, they are still abusing children simply by expanding the market for this product.
Question: do you have stats on chemical castration and recidivism in pedophiles? Or where do you have the impression that it has not been effective.

And I know about the magic pedophiles from Savage Love, where people have written in to discuss it (anonymously because to do so otherwise would certainly lead to problems, and obviously this anecdotal evidence depends on taking people at their word, but as I understand it, for every pedophile who acts, there are likely some number of those who don't).

Also, about the prevalence of kiddie porn, I don't know how familiar people are with Doug Stanhope's bit about it, but (to paraphrase), he talks about how people complain about how prevalent it is, but that he's never actually found it online, and he's looked for lots of shit, and found lots of other crazy shit, so (something like) "if pedophilia is happening as much as people think, then cock-fingering is happening in this room right now."

And that's not to take away from the fact that (of course) the pedo video market is abusive and exploitative and bad. But nowhere did anyone say that gold star magic pedophiles are participating in it. Maybe some are, which makes them like a silver or bronze star, comparatively, but I would say that some probably aren't. Maybe some of them draw their own kiddie porn caricatures, use it to get off, and then burn it so no one can ever find it.


It seems to me that the answer to the real big question here is impossible to do anything but speculate about: will fake kid porn help fewer kids be molested? Either way, it's a risk.

But it does also seem to me that if child porn is being created all the time, it's because the demand for it exists, and if the system could be infiltrated and that demand could be met by CGI child porn, then fewer actual kids would be actually traumatized by their participation. (Not that I know how to do such an infiltration, or if this seems feasible. Just philosophically, it seems possible.)



PS What if we could figure out which kids were sociopaths from a young age? Like Dexter? And just use them, because they're NOT innocent. Eh? Anyone?
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Old 03-08-2011, 11:20 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Did this really work? From the song video I saw a while ago, the guy said to that day United hasn't admitted any wrongdoing and hasn't done anything for him.
Here's the story as it appeared on The New York Times:

Revenge is best served cold – on YouTube
How a broken guitar became a smash hit
Chris Ayres

If there’s one person in America who you wouldn’t want to be right now, it is Ms Irlweg. Her full name remains a mystery. All we know is that she lives in the Chicago area, works for the customer relations department of United Airlines, and will soon become the subject of a new country and western music video, which will be posted at some point over the next week or two on YouTube.

It’s unlikely to be flattering.

You see, several months ago, Ms Irlweg had the misfortune of handling a passenger complaint from a man named Dave Carroll, who happens to be a Canadian musician with a lethally dry sense of humour. Carroll had been flying on United when he saw baggage handlers throwing around his guitar case on the tarmac outside, and when he arrived at his destination, it turned out that the neck of his beloved $3,500 Taylor six-string had been snapped. But when he asked for compensation, he was fobbed off by department after department, until finally he reached Ms Irlweg, who at least gave him a straight answer.

“No.”

“Fine,” he said to her, “But I’m going to write three songs about my experience with your airline, shoot videos for each of them, and then post them online.” Yeah, right, she must have been thinking.

But Carroll kept his promise. The first song, United Breaks Guitars, has now been played 3,515,357 times on YouTube, become a smash hit on iTunes, and has resulted in Carroll’s rather bemused appearance on every major news network in America. Meanwhile, within four days of the song going online, the gathering thunderclouds of bad PR caused United Airlines’ stock price to suffer a mid-flight stall, and it plunged by 10 per cent, costing shareholders $180 million. Which, incidentally, would have bought Carroll more than 51,000 replacement guitars.

The airline’s belated decision to donate $3,000 to the Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz as a gesture of goodwill (Carroll said he was beyond the point of accepting money) did nothing to contain the damage.

In a way, of course, United (and Ms Irlweg) just got very, very unlucky. United Breaks Guitars is as catchy as the video is hilarious, and Carroll is the kind of ruffled, likeable, almost-handsome everyman who could star in his own Hollywood romantic comedy.

But while the song and video are good-natured, the response from the airline-weary public hasn’t been quite as gracious, to the point where poor old Ms Irlweg has become as emblematic of America’s corporate malaise as the villains at AIG, General Motors and Madoff Securities.

Indeed, even Carroll seems to feel bad about the press his nemesis has been getting: he released a statement a few days ago saying that Ms Irlweg is “a great employee, and unflappable ... [and] deserves a bit of a break”. Not that much of a break, though: the second instalment of his broken guitar trilogy will go ahead as planned, with Ms Irlweg front and centre.

I can’t wait.

SOURCE


Response

Bob Taylor, owner of Taylor Guitars, immediately offered Carroll two guitars and other props for his second video; The song hit number one on the iTunes Music Store the week following its release. The Times reported that the belated compensation offer of $3,000 which was donated by United to the Thelonious Monk Institute of Jazz as a "gesture of goodwill" failed to undo the damage done to its image.

Since the incident, Carroll has been in great demand as a speaker on customer service. On one of his trips as a speaker, United Airlines lost his luggage.

In December 2009, Time magazine named "United Breaks Guitars" #7 on its list of the Top 10 Viral Videos of 2009.

WIKIPEDIA

TL;DR: he got two free guitars from Taylor (brand of broken guitar), since he was beyond the point of accepting money, it was donated. His song hit #1 on itunes, now he's in high demand as a speaker on costumer service, and the attention helped his singing career.
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:47 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Also, about the prevalence of kiddie porn, I don't know how familiar people are with Doug Stanhope's bit about it, but (to paraphrase), he talks about how people complain about how prevalent it is, but that he's never actually found it online, and he's looked for lots of shit, and found lots of other crazy shit, so (something like) "if pedophilia is happening as much as people think, then cock-fingering is happening in this room right now."
Not to send anyone on a google scavenger hunt, but the users of illicit products mask their presence on search engines in many ways. Do a search for pr0n, which is spelled this way so that it doesn't appear as porn in a memory cache.

Similar masking words:

R@ygold - (pedophylia)
qwerty - (bestiality)
showme - (voyuer)
rorikon/lolikon - (anime child) NOTE: The Engrish on this still amuses me every time I read it.
momashi - (incest)

Knock yourself out.
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Old 03-09-2011, 04:49 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Nice Stanhope quote, myq. "you have to realize that maybe no one wants to fuck yuour kids"

Still, to use him as an example, he also published an hilarious collection of baiting transcripts where he and other played out as fake minors in sex chats to expose pedophiles. So, a book like ther one by said author, that actually describes ways for "boy lovers", as they like to describe themselves, to have intercourse and get away with it, its actually dangerous, cause there IS a public for it that doesnt need to know said information or at least not legally.

i am debated on this issue. I think a book like that or the whole NAMBLA movement should be blocked out from freedom of speech. and i think that using the constitution to allow them to publish their material just enrages people.

Still i also think that censorship should me more slective and aware. This book is being equated with ficitonal works on the theme and as much as lots of people will probably say : "fiction on pedophilia isnt needed unless youre a pedophile", i am interested in novels or authors that explore dark subjects. Peter Sotos writes books that actually describe the mind of abusers down to perfection. I am a very stern moral person but i find his work fascinating (or, on a similar level the books by douglas cooper). Still these authors (that oftyen are activists against pedophilia and write those books to be able to dissect the criminal's mind) are dumped inbto the "has to be banned" bin. and thats awful too.

But if being able to stop the whole boy-lover momvement from feeling free to exist in society with no consequences means hbaving to sacrifice part of my freedom of expression or reading risqué subjects, maybe i'pd sacrifice that. im unsure.
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Old 03-09-2011, 06:00 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Question: do you have stats on chemical castration and recidivism in pedophiles? Or where do you have the impression that it has not been effective.
The main problem seems to be in making sure they continue the treatment, so point taken. The only study that I could find on men who'd been chemically castrated was from 1983 and they self-reported that they had lowered feelings of desire.

But just as in other mental illnesses that require medication, if the patient goes off their meds, the symptoms return. I was easily able to find several news articles online in which a convicted child predator raped again years later because he'd gone off his meds. There was even a case in Illinois several years ago where a child predator wearing one of those GPS tracking devices on his ankle was able to go out to a local park and rape a little girl without the authorities even realizing he'd left his house. So I have doubts that solution would work (they've suggested it in WI where I live).


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Originally Posted by myq View Post
Also, about the prevalence of kiddie porn, I don't know how familiar people are with Doug Stanhope's bit about it, but (to paraphrase), he talks about how people complain about how prevalent it is, but that he's never actually found it online, and he's looked for lots of shit, and found lots of other crazy shit, so (something like) "if pedophilia is happening as much as people think, then cock-fingering is happening in this room right now."

In the past year in southern Wisconsin, they've arrested at least five men in possession of kiddie porn, one of whom had a van stuffed full of digital and physical images as well as used children's underwear. I respectfully submit that Doug Stanhope doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Pedophiles are molesting kids and then sharing the spoils with each other and the internet facilitates it.



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It seems to me that the answer to the real big question here is impossible to do anything but speculate about: will fake kid porn help fewer kids be molested? Either way, it's a risk.

I don't believe it will. Fewer pedophiles will help fewer kids be molested. And that's not me saying they should all be killed. That would be impossible anyway because for every one who gets arrested there are twenty out there hurting kids. My molester was never arrested, because I never reported it. But she has MS now and is living in agony so I feel karma has taken care of it for me.

Also, isn't that an argument that people float for all rapists? That porn will help relieve them of the urge? Considering how prevalent rape still is, I doubt that it works that way. (I say this as someone who does not have an objection to porn as long as everyone involved is a consenting adult)
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:08 AM   #46 (permalink)
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There are different levels to freedom of speech. Political speech is afforded the highest protections because it is required for a democracy to function. This was the main reason for the 1st amendment, allowing for public debate and criticism of rulers. Commercial speech is protected, but heavily regulated in order to protect consumers. Obscenity gets very little protection because it does not play a valued roll in society. If speech fails the Miller test, it gets no protection.

1. Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest (A morbid, degrading and unhealthy interest in sex, as distinguished from a mere candid interest in sex.)

2. Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by applicable state law.

3. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value.

Kiddie porn would fail all 3, and so gets no protection. It can be made illegal and have penalties imposed for owning, making, selling, etc.

Regular adult porn, depicting sex between consenting adults, would be part of a normal interest in sex, so would pass the first test and have some protection. Limitations can be placed on it, but it can't be made illegal to own.
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Old 03-09-2011, 07:09 AM   #47 (permalink)
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In the past year in southern Wisconsin, they've arrested at least five men in possession of kiddie porn, one of whom had a van stuffed full of digital and physical images as well as used children's underwear. I respectfully submit that Doug Stanhope doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. Pedophiles are molesting kids and then sharing the spoils with each other and the internet facilitates it.
The Stanhope joke sounds weird out of context, the bit where he made it (which is on the great "no refunds" special) was more about the mass hysteria againt the internet than about child porn.

it was directed at the moralist agenda who attacks th web as dungeon of depravity that should be kept under control.

this is the bit



And theres another one that i particularly love

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:12 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Yeah, there is definitely a witch hunt mentality that goes into some of these issues, such as so-called satanic rituals in daycares (didn't happen). So I understand if he was coming from that side of it. You're right, the quote out of context makes it seem like he's saying that because he couldn't find it, that means it doesn't exist. I watch porn on the internet and have never seen people fucking animals, but I know that it exists.

Myq, I do enjoy debating you because you leave all the emotional name calling out of it even while playing Devil's Advocate. Is this because you're a robot?

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Old 03-09-2011, 08:18 AM   #49 (permalink)
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oh he knows it exists, he actually does some amazing material about it in his later perofrmances. hes more pointing out how everyone seems to be obsessed by the child porn aspect of the internet where theres any sort of horrifying deviancy out there. and his end points is pretty much "dont fight the internet, take your kids off of it and pay attention to them".

which i think is the best point one can make.

Stanhope hardly says silly things, his jokes are though but hes a very smart and deep man.
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Old 03-09-2011, 08:45 AM   #50 (permalink)
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i was ready to go off in this thread this morning, but Junk and Myq already took the cake.
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