1645: The Civil War II

[scottperezfox]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Eat fish on Fridays...

I always thought it was because [Saint] Peter, the first Pope, was originally a fisherman. A bit of a head-nod to the guy who inherited the duty of Head God-talker from Jesus.

[rodimusprime]

Originally Posted by stulagu

I don't leave because I can understand their view on it even though I don't agree with it. As long as it isn't "women are weak so they can't be pastors" and I am not treated as a lesser person (which I was at one church I left) then for me the overall benefit is better than nothing. Kind of like being a democrat, I don't like everything about them, but I believe in most of it, so I stay but still make my mind known.

I'm not saying Lutherans don't abuse kids at all, I think they are more passive aggressive and belittle children. I think a lot of the Catholic sexual abuse is because 1) the celebacy (nuns sexually abuse too) and 2) the job can attract people prone to molesting kids, oh and 3) the church was so afraid to expose it, that they ended up encouraging it via looking the other way.

I agree that it is sad, but not everyone can be activists. At every other church I went to or worked for I caused problems...same with pretty much my entire educational history since middle school. I've been beaten down so much and made so little headway, that at this church I decided to not be so vehement and do things with a gentler (quieter) hand.

Yelling your views at someone who doesn't believe what you're saying does nothing. Showing compassion and quiet respect yet holding your ground with your views and even maybe compromising gains a whole lot more ground. Of course, this is just my experience...

Oh nah I know why you do it. It's just sad is all. And I think most religious people are more like you but still allow those who are bigots, zealots and assholes to represent you because they are the most vocal. I wish ya'll would revolt and reclaim your faith from them instead of just going along to get along.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by rodimusprime

Oh nah I know why you do it. It's just sad is all. And I think most religious people are more like you but still allow those who are bigots, zealots and assholes to represent you because they are the most vocal. I wish ya'll would revolt and reclaim your faith from them instead of just going along to get along.

No, it is more about letting politics and religion coexist. I know it will be an uphill battle...but I can seperate my church from state. The general population I know aren't bigots or assholes.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Eat fish on Fridays...

Why?

Because the fishmongers appealed to the Pope that their fish wasn't being bought enough. He decided that he would declare Friday, "fish eating day!" Religion or politics?

This story repeats itself over and over again.

Even the kosher laws...people eat pigs...they die. People eat shellfish...they die. DON'T EAT THOSE THINGS!!!! Make up a reason why because the science of the day can't say WHY. A good idea? At the time, absolutely. Today? Outdated.

Now that we can see at a microscopic level, bugs are being found on fruit. Eating bugs on fruit invalidates the fruit being kosher. We could never see it before and ate it without a thought of kosher/non-kosher. Is the fruit kosher? IMO ridiculous to even discuss.

The whole pig and shellfish thing is Jewish/Hebrew tradition and it is because both are bottom feeders and eat unclean things which can make you sick. It is a health concern, though not nowadays (possibly like getting your boys circumsized). There are many that still eat kosher for health and not religious reasons.

[Lura]

If I were to compile y'all's definitions of "god", "church", and "christian", I would be as against them as you are. Similarly, if I asked a bunch of Republicans to describe the Democrat agenda (and vise versa) I would agree with the wrongheadedness of the "other side". Anytime you have a group defining their opponent the definition is going to be a caricature. But let us who claim those labels define ourselves.

Add to the mix people like Keith who think their experience, in his case a rigid Catholic background, is the only version of a broad group and who seemingly can't think outside of that box, you are going to get a skewed view. Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.

My experience as a christian proves to me that god is pro-gay-marriage. I think god is love and expressions of love are expressions of god. Personally I think we should follow the model many other nations do and have the state sanction a civil marriage for contract, property, insurance, and other legal reasons, and have the various religious groups provide for their own blessings as they see fit. Separate church and state.

I am pro-choice but anti-abortion. I wish there were no need for abortion but the decision should be the woman's, and if she so wishes in consultation with her partner, doctor, spiritual adviser, or whoever. Keep it legal, safe, and rare. I once saw a video of pro-life protesters being asked, once abortion is illegal, what should be the prison sentence for a woman who gets one. They all just stumbled and said we should pray for them. Think through your argument, sheeple; if it's illegal, it's a crime and we send people to prison for crimes. It cannot become illegal again. Our society owes it to women who find themselves in a crisis pregnancy many avenues of support so that the pregnant teen doesn't have to live in fear of her parents and the working poor woman doesn't have to live in fear of losing her job if she has to take maternity leave. And the "people of faith" on the sidewalks with the huge posters of aborted babies have a greater responsibility by dint of the commands in the bible they adhere to to assist the needy.

I believe the theory of evolution and the big bang theory. I just happen to believe that these are the tools god used to create the world.

The first five books of the Hebrew scripture were written centuries after the fact and were not meant as historical documents. Their purpose is to convey Truth, not Facts, just as Aesop's fables do. No six day creation, no snake with a piece of fruit for Eve. And by the way, it doesn't say the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. It says when Abraham got to Egypt they were completed for hundreds of years already. The slaves worked on other building projects.

I have learned over the years and through lots of pain and loss that the only honest way to pray is to say "please help". If I tell god what I need or ask him for something specific, that's just dumb. If he's who I believe he is, he already knows what I need better than I do. "Not as I will, but as you will."

Why do the innocent suffer? What about huge natural disasters? I don't know.

You can throw a bunch of "oh yeah, what about..." stuff at me and I don't care. Yes, the church(s) through the years have been made up of sinful people doing shitty things. Every group of humans has that same track record. Jesus never said "My church will be perfect, or even good", he just said "the gates of Hades will not overcome it."

Like Jeffrey Joseph said, what matters to me is I love Jesus and he loves me, and you.

[Lura]

Oh, and I don't donate money to general funds because I don't want my money going to things I don't approve of.

[picard102]

I'm constantly amazed how people who are seemingly normal, intelligent, and/or of the same community, can believe in horse shit like organized religion.

[Blitzgal]

Originally Posted by Lura

Not all christians operate like Catholics, in fact many christians don't count Catholics as real christians.

Look into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, because you just employed it with your post.

I grew up Christian, in the Methodist faith. My father was very active in our church, taught Sunday School, performed the liturgy, etc. Then he died, and my congregation freaked the fuck out. They had no idea how to deal with a 40 year old widow and her young kids. So they chose to not deal with us -- by effectively ostracizing us. Because we made them feel weird.

By that point I was already approaching agnosticism -- I was that annoying kid in Sunday school who asked where the dinosaurs fit into history, and where did Cain find his wife if he and Abel were the first kids on the planet? I still remember how truly terrible I felt as a child when I was informed that all of life's hardships were the fault of women, because of Eve. Church is what turned me into a feminist (that and realizing that my mother worked all day and then came home every night and worked again, until late in the evening).

So by that point I wasn't much of a believer, but church to me was community -- a group of people who support each other in times of need. And our community tossed us out rather than be inconvenienced by us when we needed them the most. That was the final straw for me, and I haven't looked back since. My mother has since changed churches, and the one she goes to now seems pretty open-minded. But I'm done. Organized religion hasn't been good for the world and it wasn't even good on a personal level for me. And my story is mild in comparison to people who have been kidnapped and forced into anti-gay programs, or told that they can't get married in the church because they are black (which just happened last month, by the way).

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Lura

Why do the innocent suffer? What about huge natural disasters? I don't know.

innocence is a human construct and means nothing in the universal grand scheme. events happen to people. nature doesn't take into account your heart situation or provide divine protection. a wolf will happily eat your baby alive. as for disasters, our atmosphere provides us relatively calm planetary weather patterns. when they come around it's likely the combination of pressure, temperature, and wind.

[DWarrior]

I'm with Myq about not getting arbitrary communities. I had my programming club when I was a kid, so I didn't need church.

Join a tennis club or something, it'll be a much better way to spend your time.