1645: The Civil War II

[Nightengale64]

Not just one book but I can't seem to find any of them on my shelves. I hate moving. Have you read Archaeology magazine? They had a few articles in there on the subject as well.

Brothels were their steady source of income as well as indulgences. You could pay to have your loved one removed from hell or purgatory one body part at a time. I think that is almost as bad as selling women.

[rodimusprime]

Originally Posted by stulagu

There are plenty of Christians that support social issues and that realize seperation of Church and state is important. I'm a Lutheran, and we broke away from the Catholics hundreds of years ago...it sucks to lump us all together, though I understand why it is done. (but the Catholics are the molesters, not all Christians)

I am attending a church that belongs to a denomination that is anti gay and doesn't allow women to be pastors. I totally disagree with these views. However, it is VERY hard for me to find a church that meets the main reason why I go to church (a knowledgable pastor that knows the Bible and how to teach it, good music, a healthy environment, and that I can take something from each week spiritually). I have made enemies in my church speaking out against the social views, but I have also had people privately thank me for being vocal about my social views.

There are Christians that line gay pride parades with signs saying "I'm sorry" apologizing for the church's attitude. Eventually, enough will get the courage to do the same. It will take a LONG time to turn the established denominations around, but I hope it happens.

I think a good amount of logical Christians, when argued with respectfully, realize that when boiled down, the very basics of Christianity is about loving everyone, no matter who they are. Whether that gets translated to "I don't agree with you, but wont' judge you" or "hate the sin, not the sinner" or "by golly, just because you're gay it doesn't mean you're not a good person" or "I don't care who you are, lets all hold hands and pray" I don't know...but these next couple decades will definitely be tumultuous ones for Christian traditions.

I just photographed a wedding of two women that are very devoted Christians, their wedding was way more spiritual and emotional than most straight weddings I've shot, and it meant even more seeing these families embrace their daughters for who they are. I was moved to tears many times.

I think that's what bothers me the most. People will boycott a chicken joint but then go to a church with the same views or worse. It's like they are the mass of the flock but they are scared to actually actively get a change. Why the women of all these churches that don't allow women as pastors wouldn't just join up and leave? I don't know.

Like you said your church "Lutherans" left and formed what they thought was a better situation. (I'm not even getting into the child molestation thing but I've seen it in more than the Catholic church. See: Eddie Long)

It's just sad cause as long as people are just happy to have a place to go on Sunday's they're going to continue to let all social change fall to the wayside.

[Nightengale64]

Originally Posted by Blitzgal

I don't want to be....mean....but you studied this topic in school and can't spell "the Vatican?"

Are you talking about the Borgias?

Sorry college lets you graduate without first learning how to spell. The Borgias family was just one the corrupt periods of Rome.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by rodimusprime

I think that's what bothers me the most. People will boycott a chicken joint but then go to a church with the same views or worse. It's like they are the mass of the flock but they are scared to actually actively get a change. Why the women of all these churches that don't allow women as pastors wouldn't just join up and leave? I don't know.

Like you said your church "Lutherans" left and formed what they thought was a better situation. (I'm not even getting into the child molestation thing but I've seen it in more than the Catholic church. See: Eddie Long)

It's just sad cause as long as people are just happy to have a place to go on Sunday's they're going to continue to let all social change fall to the wayside.

I don't leave because I can understand their view on it even though I don't agree with it. As long as it isn't "women are weak so they can't be pastors" and I am not treated as a lesser person (which I was at one church I left) then for me the overall benefit is better than nothing. Kind of like being a democrat, I don't like everything about them, but I believe in most of it, so I stay but still make my mind known.

I'm not saying Lutherans don't abuse kids at all, I think they are more passive aggressive and belittle children. I think a lot of the Catholic sexual abuse is because 1) the celebacy (nuns sexually abuse too) and 2) the job can attract people prone to molesting kids, oh and 3) the church was so afraid to expose it, that they ended up encouraging it via looking the other way.

I agree that it is sad, but not everyone can be activists. At every other church I went to or worked for I caused problems...same with pretty much my entire educational history since middle school. I've been beaten down so much and made so little headway, that at this church I decided to not be so vehement and do things with a gentler (quieter) hand.

Yelling your views at someone who doesn't believe what you're saying does nothing. Showing compassion and quiet respect yet holding your ground with your views and even maybe compromising gains a whole lot more ground. Of course, this is just my experience...

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by Nightengale64

Sorry college lets you graduate without first learning how to spell. The Borgias family was just one the corrupt periods of Rome.

I have been google searching for an hour and seriously can't find anything to back up what you are saying...and I'd be worried if a college graduated you where you can't spell one of the most important words in your main studies.

[BrianAlt]

Eat fish on Fridays...

Why?

Because the fishmongers appealed to the Pope that their fish wasn't being bought enough. He decided that he would declare Friday, "fish eating day!" Religion or politics?

This story repeats itself over and over again.

Even the kosher laws...people eat pigs...they die. People eat shellfish...they die. DON'T EAT THOSE THINGS!!!! Make up a reason why because the science of the day can't say WHY. A good idea? At the time, absolutely. Today? Outdated.

Now that we can see at a microscopic level, bugs are being found on fruit. Eating bugs on fruit invalidates the fruit being kosher. We could never see it before and ate it without a thought of kosher/non-kosher. Is the fruit kosher? IMO ridiculous to even discuss.

[scottperezfox]

Originally Posted by BrianAlt

Eat fish on Fridays...

I always thought it was because [Saint] Peter, the first Pope, was originally a fisherman. A bit of a head-nod to the guy who inherited the duty of Head God-talker from Jesus.

[Nightengale64]

These might be some interesting reading:

http://web.archive.org/web/200804132.../FMG/Popes.pdf

What Sister Never Knew and Father Never Told You: The Pornocracy--shady ladies and promiscuous popes

THE MEDIEVAL PAPACY

Chapter 6: Pontiffs, Palaces, and Pornocracy | Religious Studies Center

[rodimusprime]

Originally Posted by stulagu

I don't leave because I can understand their view on it even though I don't agree with it. As long as it isn't "women are weak so they can't be pastors" and I am not treated as a lesser person (which I was at one church I left) then for me the overall benefit is better than nothing. Kind of like being a democrat, I don't like everything about them, but I believe in most of it, so I stay but still make my mind known.

I'm not saying Lutherans don't abuse kids at all, I think they are more passive aggressive and belittle children. I think a lot of the Catholic sexual abuse is because 1) the celebacy (nuns sexually abuse too) and 2) the job can attract people prone to molesting kids, oh and 3) the church was so afraid to expose it, that they ended up encouraging it via looking the other way.

I agree that it is sad, but not everyone can be activists. At every other church I went to or worked for I caused problems...same with pretty much my entire educational history since middle school. I've been beaten down so much and made so little headway, that at this church I decided to not be so vehement and do things with a gentler (quieter) hand.

Yelling your views at someone who doesn't believe what you're saying does nothing. Showing compassion and quiet respect yet holding your ground with your views and even maybe compromising gains a whole lot more ground. Of course, this is just my experience...

Oh nah I know why you do it. It's just sad is all. And I think most religious people are more like you but still allow those who are bigots, zealots and assholes to represent you because they are the most vocal. I wish ya'll would revolt and reclaim your faith from them instead of just going along to get along.

[stulagu]

Originally Posted by rodimusprime

Oh nah I know why you do it. It's just sad is all. And I think most religious people are more like you but still allow those who are bigots, zealots and assholes to represent you because they are the most vocal. I wish ya'll would revolt and reclaim your faith from them instead of just going along to get along.

No, it is more about letting politics and religion coexist. I know it will be an uphill battle...but I can seperate my church from state. The general population I know aren't bigots or assholes.