2197: Transrachel

[Los]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

we LOVE to dig our heels in. we will not be made to move. change is slow here for a lot of reasons. there are no simple, immediate actions to magically fix everything. it will take a couple more generations.

What does it say about the people though if association with the Ku Klux Klan and racism isn't enough to get them to drop it? Shouldn't they want to let it go on their own? That's what I don't get.

Except for electing the first black president, all change in this country regarding racial injustice was done by force. Unless the federal government bans flying the battle flag, I don't see it going away.

[daemon]

White guy dating/living with black girlfriend. It's been great. Her family is very supportive and treats me like family.

Not all of my family is supportive but I don't talk to those family members anymore.

[Keith]

Of course. They're supportive, but your family is weary.

Can you imagine that's her life? I mean it. I realize I can't imagine.

[OnmyojiOmn]

Kill Me Now is great, and the Rosie episode was the best one because Lauren was able to get a word out through the yelling schtick. The RSS has feed has been broken the whole time, but I didn't want to get Lauren in trouble.

I wonder if Bill Cosby ever consensually dosed Camilla and had sex with her corpsey body. It's not unheard of for kinky couples to mess around with that. I wonder if he just outright non-consensually sleepraped his wife. Seems likely.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Los

What does it say about the people though if association with the Ku Klux Klan and racism isn't enough to get them to drop it? Shouldn't they want to let it go on their own? That's what I don't get.

Unless the federal government bans flying the battle flag, I don't see it going away.

i think the latter point is extreme. even if it's repugnant, individuals have the right to express themselves.

to the former, i don't get it either. i think it has a lot to do with the taboo of being openly proud of Southern heritage just in general; it will always, all of it, be stained with violence and exploitation. and not just of the black community; the fruits of poverty and industry are well and alive for people of all colors from the extraction of our natural resources. it comes with its own set of stereotypes that we've come to resent real hard. we aren't allowed to feel nice things about where we come from; we lost the war. that feeling, pride, by itself, is subversive and rebellious and we love that. the more the outside hates something we're doing, the more we like it. the more we rally around it.

again, not a judgment call on its rightness or wrongness, but this is the nature of the beast.

it's telling someone who's created a narrative for themselves their narrative is 1) incorrect and 2) actually this other thing someone else decided for them. it reads to us, however incorrectly, as an attempt to take away agency in the creation and maintenance of our identity. (edit: this happens a lot. even back during Reconstruction when outsiders came down to "fix" us and exploit the chaos for personal gain. it happens when there's something valuable in the ground that outweighs the care of the people on the land. it happens when gated communities crop up and outsider retirees play politics.)

there's a lot of us working to change that attitude. building new narrative. it would help if the nation at large wouldn't whip 'em up into a frenzy while we do it. again, it's like dealing with fucking babies. Scotticus is right in that a lot of them are just going to have to literally die off.

[Lea]

Loved the shades of brown show!!

[Kultcher]

Holy shit. I don't think I've ever gotten actually angry listening to a KATG episode, but this one made me livid. The social justice train is going off the fucking rails.

For some context: I am bi-racial, half-black and half-white. My skin is dark enough that I could never "pass." I married a white girl (Nettie-poo, go see her boobs in another thread - yes, she and I were Kickstarter supporters on the show last month), and we have a daughter together.

Culturally, I am white as fuck. I was adopted by a white family, and grew up in a small almost 100% white town in upstate NY. I never fit in there but that had almost nothing to do with race and more to do with the fact that I was a huge nerd in a town full of hunters and sports fans.

I have been called nigger more than once. I've gotten askew glances from white people. I'm sure I've been passed over for some opportunities due to my color. But beyond that, I don't identify with the "black experience." I have pretty much zero connection to the black community. Yet, no one will ever question my blackness.

I wonder what it will be like for my daughter. She'll technically be a "woman of color," but she's almost as light-skinned as her mother and has blonde hair. Only her curls give away that she has any black heritage. She'll probably never get called a nigger or face real prejudice. But if she grew up and decided to "claim her heritage," she could with 100% certainty say that her dad was "african-american." Culturally, she will probably grow up as white - if not whiter - than Rachel Dolezal. Yet if she were in Dolezal's position, this wouldn't even be a controversy. No one would bat a fucking eye.

Or imagine my situation but in reverse. A white kid gets adopted by black parents, grows up in a black community. Can that kid claim blackness? Which gives us a more legitimate claim to blackness? Our genes, or our culture?

I'm not even trying to really defend Dolezal here. I don't know what's in her head, maybe she is crazy and manipulative and worthy of all the scorn. Maybe she legitimately means well and legitimately "feels black." Who am I to say?

What frustrates me is how quick everyone is to call her out as "wanting to play the victim" when they were doing that very thing all show. "Can't get decent service at Applebee's." Nigga, please. I live in upstate NY. I live literally four doors down from a family that flies a confederate flag on their house. I guarantee I run into more racist white people than you do. The service at Applebees is just fine.

Look, we all know by now that white privilege is a thing. It's a problem and it deserves to be acknowledged and called out - when it happens. You go around assuming that every white person is looking at you like "what's this nigger doing here", and guess what you're doing? You're prejudging them. You're painting them as ignorant and hateful when they've done nothing but look at you. Even if they look at you with a frown, I dunno, maybe they're just having a bad fucking day! White people have shit going on too.

On the show, it was mentioned multiple times how race is a social construct. Well, when you go around making declarative statements about who or what is or isn't black, you're just reinforcing that construct. For fuck's sake!

And not to call Lauren out specifically, but it just baffles me how hard-line he was on this. As someone who has no doubt faced prejudice, and no doubt struggled with identity, I don't understand how he can be so quick to pass judgement. Tone down the white guilt, man. I forgive you.

Again, I'm not trying to defend or condemn Dolezal. It's just, as a person who has struggled with my own identity, I'm sad that people aren't looking at this with more nuance. I basically "feel white" but I know I'll always be defined by my "blackness," which literally starts and ends with the color of my skin (oh, and my huge dick). Granted, Dolezal got to "choose" to be black, but that doesn't make any discrimination she faced while "passing" any less real, or her work for the NAACP any less valid. My "whiteness" doesn't disqualify me from being black, despite having no connection to the black community. Why should hers?

[FingerLakes]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

The social justice train is going off the fucking rails.

Almost stopped reading here, I've had enough GG and other assholes throwing this around but I decided I needed to be fair and kept going.

Originally Posted by Kultcher

I have been called nigger more than once. I've gotten askew glances from white people. I'm sure I've been passed over for some opportunities due to my color. But beyond that, I don't identify with the "black experience." I have pretty much zero connection to the black community. Yet, no one will ever question my blackness.

I wonder what it will be like for my daughter. She'll technically be a "woman of color," but she's almost as light-skinned as her mother and has blonde hair. Only her curls give away that she has any black heritage. She'll probably never get called a nigger or face real prejudice. But if she grew up and decided to "claim her heritage," she could with 100% certainty say that her dad was "african-american." Culturally, she will probably grow up as white - if not whiter - than Rachel Dolezal. Yet if she were in Dolezal's position, this wouldn't even be a controversy. No one would bat a fucking eye.


I'm not even trying to really defend Dolezal here. I don't know what's in her head, maybe she is crazy and manipulative and worthy of all the scorn. Maybe she legitimately means well and legitimately "feels black." Who am I to say?

What frustrates me is how quick everyone is to call her out as "wanting to play the victim" when they were doing that very thing all show. "Can't get decent service at Applebee's." Nigga, please. I live in upstate NY. I live literally four doors down from a family that flies a confederate flag on their house. I guarantee I run into more racist white people than you do. The service at Applebees is just fine.
My "whiteness" doesn't disqualify me from being black, despite having no connection to the black community. Why should hers?

The difference is, besides getting tan skin and then dealing with people reacting to THAT, everything else she has claimed and taken it upon herself credit for is a lie or a decision she's made. Maybe she does "feel black" but she only did for a couple years. As her court case against her college points out, she was fine being white when it was helping her move forward in life.

People are saying she's playing the victim because the platorms she has taken to to fight racial injustice always include her personally and always includes those things she's decided to take on herself. The weird looks, and people talking about her skin, and telling black girls to love their kinky hair and telling her son that since HE'S [part] black that means she has to be black too. She could fight for agency and visibility of black people as a white person but she needs to tell reporters and people at the NAACP and students that "I'M WITH YOU! I'VE FACED THE SAME THINGS! I UNDERSTAND!" She is playing the hero by saying she's been the victim too.

What would you think if your white parent told you they were actually black because you looked black and white? And then began to change how they look? wouldn't that seem off?

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

I basically "feel white" but I know I'll always be defined by my "blackness," which literally starts and ends with the color of my skin (oh, and my huge dick).

My "whiteness" doesn't disqualify me from being black, despite having no connection to the black community. Why should hers?

you are part of the black community. everything you do/are/ascribe to describes the black community by virtue of your heritage. your experience is different, but no less black because you yourself are black.

is that what being white is? video games? sci fi? these are just things. i don't' like referring to them as 'white culture' because they belong to everyone.

whiteness is seeing myself represented as default. no amount of nerding out will give that bit of it to you. just like no amount of braids, hip hop, or first hand knowledge can give your blackness to me.

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by FingerLakes

Almost stopped reading here, I've had enough GG and other assholes throwing this around but I decided I needed to be fair and kept going.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a bleeding heart progressive myself. If using the term lumps me in with GG or MRA types, I won't use it, but I do think there are times when the movement goes too far and starts looking for persecution where these is none. I think that kind of extremism is almost as dangerous as the other side, because it undermines progressivism by making it look ridiculous, and the legitimate claims get laughed off with all over-reactions.

Originally Posted by FingerLakes

People are saying she's playing the victim because the platorms she has taken to to fight racial injustice always include her personally and always includes those things she's decided to take on herself.

That wasn't my point. I'm not arguing that Dolezal wasn't playing the victim, I just found it hypocritical to rake her over the coals for it and then, I'd argue, over-representing your own victimhood. Is it harder to be black in America? Of fucking course. But Katiuska was playing it off like it's this titanic, unimaginable burden, like everywhere a black person goes they are constantly wilting under the suspicious eyes of every white person and I just think that's ridiculous.

What would you think if your white parent told you they were actually black because you looked black and white? And then began to change how they look? wouldn't that seem off?

Yeah, it would seem off. It would also seem "off" if my dad starting wearing a dress. I'm not being transphobic here - or I guess by some measure I am - but the comparison I'm trying to draw is that in both scenarios I would feel strange seeing the person that I knew transform into a different person. If my dad came out as trans I would accept him, but it would probably take a minute to adjust. It would seem off for awhile. If my mom decided to be black... I don't know, you know?

And yes I know trans is based on actual science. But remove Dolezal and her supposed victim complex from the equation for a sec. If a just "normal" white person decided to live their life as black, and they weren't a crusader for justice, etc., they lived among black people and never gave it up and retreated back to being white... How would we react to that person? Yes, it would be weird, but would it be wrong?

I realize I'm being very rhetorical here and that's on purpose. Because I don't fucking know. What bothers me is how damn sure everyone else seems to be about what "blackness" means and who is allowed to claim it.

Originally Posted by Sparrow

you are part of the black community. everything you do/are/ascribe to describes the black community by virtue of your heritage. your experience is different, but no less black because you yourself are black.

Okay, but what about my other examples? My light-skinned daughter, or a black kid raised by white parents. People who can pass as the default, but may still feel a connection to the black experience because their parents are black? Are they less black? By how much? Who is the arbiter to decide how much "blackness" they can claim?