2197: Transrachel

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Los

There are always limits on free speech and epxression. This should be one of them. Georgia changed its flag, and still managed to recognize its heritage. There's no reason that others can't do the same.

I disagree with this. I have a lot of family in the South, mostly in Maryland and West Virginia, and I love it there. Our entire country has a past with elements that we should be ashamed of, and that we should celebrate. It's not hard to do both.

There's still a racist component to embracing that symbol that reasonable people either don't recognize, or aren't willing to acknowledge.

i agree wholeheartedly it should be taken down from government everything. i won't, however, legislate some jackoff from attaching it to his truck.

saying out loud that one is proud to be Southern conjures up instant images of ignorance, blind racism, religious fanatasism, and extreme conservatism for outsiders. people don't feel weird asking me with complete sincerity if i've ever fucked my brother then laugh openly at my face at how stupid we are. or make pig noises and hum dueling banjos. these things are rude, aren't funny, but are entirely allowable socially. you can degrade my people for laughs and we can't say anything about it.

yeah. i also find it a weird hill to want to die on.

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

Ok now, if she ever self-identifies as "biracial" then yes, be prepared that she will be called a nigga, mutt, mulatto, and half breed. If she doesn't volunteer it and still appears more white, thats not passing at all. Thats your daughter simply not feeling the need to self-identify to noisy ass motherfuckers.

If she chooses not to identify, how is that NOT passing? If she is perceived as white by everyone who meets her, is she not benefiting from some degree of white privilege? And if she is, why does she get to claim blackness, too?

I'm not asking a bunch of white people. I'm asking a bunch of people. Why does there always have to be a fucking line in the sand?

But sure, I'll agree with you: black people get to decide, broadly. What if some black person argues that my daughter isn't black because she benefits from some degree of white privilege, and I argue that she is, or SHE argues that she is? Who is right?

Like I said in my first post, we all agree that race is a social construct. So why the fuck do we keep reinforcing the construct? Why do we, who have suffered so much because of our blackness, fight so hard to hold on to that shit? To be clear I'm not saying, "Let bygones be bygones and race relations are fixed." But it's like both sides are fighting to keep everyone in their boxes.

It's not that I don't care about Rachel Dolezal. I'm just approaching it from an academic point of view. Rachel may be a lying bitch, but I can IMAGINE a situation where a person identifies as black, even is "one-drop" black, despite never having faced "the struggle." I'm earnestly trying to figure out, when such a situation arises, how people will react. And IF it is okay for a person who has never struggled, who has enjoyed white privilege, to claim blackness via "one-drop" WHY IS THAT OKAY?

[ImStillToni]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

If she chooses not to identify, how is that NOT passing? If she is perceived as white by everyone who meets her, is she not benefiting from some degree of white privilege? And if she is, why does she get to claim blackness, too?

I'm not asking a bunch of white people. I'm asking a bunch of people. Why does there always have to be a fucking line in the sand?

But sure, I'll agree with you: black people get to decide, broadly. What if some black person argues that my daughter isn't black because she benefits from some degree of white privilege, and I argue that she is, or SHE argues that she is? Who is right?

Like I said in my first post, we all agree that race is a social construct. So why the fuck do we keep reinforcing the construct? Why do we, who have suffered so much because of our blackness, fight so hard to hold on to that shit? To be clear I'm not saying, "Let bygones be bygones and race relations are fixed." But it's like both sides are fighting to keep everyone in their boxes.

It's not that I don't care about Rachel Dolezal. I'm just approaching it from an academic point of view. Rachel may be a lying bitch, but I can IMAGINE a situation where a person identifies as black, even is "one-drop" black, despite never having faced "the struggle." I'm earnestly trying to figure out, when such a situation arises, how people will react. And IF it is okay for a person who has never struggled, who has enjoyed white privilege, to claim blackness via "one-drop" WHY IS THAT OKAY?

Passing includes the act of not self-idenitfying, therefore you are allowing others to qualify with their eyes and take in the visual. When Rachel asked if she was african american, she never directly answered the question. she hemmed and hawed, she talked about her experience, and she uses artificial means to cover up her deception including tanning, specific hair that whites identify as black, and makeup to PASS. That is passing.

Not being asked and/or not feeling the need to say "hey, i'm mixed, bi-racial, etc" is not passing. Its just not sharing. The intent is not malicious.

And IF it is okay for a person who has never struggled, who has enjoyed white privilege, to claim blackness via "one-drop" WHY IS THAT OKAY?" I never said it was ok or acceptable for a white person to claim blackness via "one drop." i simply answered your question who gets to decide blackness 1) historical (whites) 2) factually (blacks)

And I'm sorry to say, you are indeed asking a bunch of white people. This forum is not a huge melting pot per se....so yea, you kind of did. Because I think, one one hand, its laughable that anyone who is not black sit here and try to tell you or me what is blackness. Does that make sense? We are ingrained by white people to ask they what they think about every fucking thing. I simply asked you don't you find it ironic you are doing so or not be considered when this is something that will impact your daughter for years to come - or at least your lifetime anyway

See my point? I can't sit here and tell Chemda what it's like to be Jewish, can I?


Let's take the church shooting for example. If any person, bi-racial and black liek tar, was in that church there were going to be murdered by that white boy. Someone who looks like me, you, or your daughter. Simply for being in a historic house of African American worship. Did the shooter ask anyone "are you part white" before going on a shooting rampage? No, he just went by association. any association that can be made not just by one's complexion, but who they associate with, where they live, where they go to school...etc etc. So your daughter's complexion is irrelevant. If she identifies with her mom and dad, then she will be check a white and black box forever but her appearance can vary.

White people put us in this box. The made the box. They forced us in it. THEY KEEP REINFORCING THE SIDES WITH CEMENT, At some point, we have to say "fuck you and your box" OR stop trying to overcome...just let them continue winning and telling us our lives mean less.

Personally, I made jokes about race here and there on the forums, but Rachel is a different animal and perhaps a very bad time for us in the US right now. I have never been as disgusted and outraged on so many levels, like this shit literally can make me shake with rage. I had more of a white upbringing than black. I'm not some revolutionary and i've definitely had my share of white dick. Perhaps you and i feel differently simply because I am a Black woman and our struggles are different. How would you feel if Rachel was a white man named Ray who did the same thing?

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

I never said it was ok or acceptable for a white person to claim blackness via "one drop." i simply answered your question who gets to decide blackness 1) historical (whites) 2) factually (blacks)

Fair enough. So my daughter, if she grows up enjoying a basically white existence, can she or can she not claim blackness?

And I'm sorry to say, you are indeed asking a bunch of white people.

There's such a thing as being objective. White people have a conception of what is black, even if they can't define it. White people are weighing in on Rachel Dolezal, and their opinion matters whether we want it to or not. I'm curious what white people - or asians or whoever else - will "accept" as blackness, too. Hearing their thoughts and opinions is not giving them power.

So your daughter's complexion is irrelevant. If she identifies with her mom and dad, then she will be check a white and black box forever but her appearance can vary.

Suppose my daughter grows up functionally white and never really joins the black community. Then at age 30 she decides she wants to connect with her black heritage and starts working for the NAACP. Is that okay? Why or why not?

White people put us in this box. The made the box. They forced us in it. THEY KEEP REINFORCING THE SIDES WITH CEMENT

All true. My problem is that we're adding cement too. Every time you draw a line between "us" and "them" you're adding to it. When Katiuska says that she always assumes white people are looking at her "the bad way," and throws all kinds of stereotypes at them, she's adding to it.

White people fired the first shot, but we're still firing back. That's not how you end a fucking war. Again, not saying we roll over and just accept everything. Affirmative action, acknowledging and confronting white privilege, etc., all good steps. But when we make a conscious choice to emphasize our differences, when you say, "This is black and YOU CAN'T HAVE IT," you're only widening the gap. You're only alienating the "good" white people and making the "bad" white people angrier.

And yes, I know white people do that shit to us all the fucking time. SO. WHAT. Oldest fucking adage in the book: two wrongs do not make a right.

How would you feel if Rachel was a white man named Ray who did the same thing?

I don't see how it'd be relevant. I'd be asking the same questions.

[Enunciated Piffle]

I think all the dialogue stemming from Rachel Drozehal is great. "What's it mean to be Black?" The Black experience. All that. However. There's one topic missing. That is Rachel Drozehal is an absolute fake-tan candidate for skin cancer.

I hope she gets that reality show. When she does. I want to see the dialogue extended from 'Bitch is Crazy' to 'Bitch got Melanoma.'

The Struggle is real, people!!! So is cancer treatment

[OnmyojiOmn]

MTV White People documentary preview - Business Insider

Yeesh.

[LittleCigar]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

2nd post and brilliant! Thank you! I never discounted her work or education at all, just the need of a log con to get over. She tried to take 3 steps forward by taking 20 steps backwards with her deceptive long con.

Not sure if you have gotten this already, but FUCK YOUUUUUUUUU and welcome to the forums.

Aw shucks.

[ImStillToni]

Kultcher,
I think you are right to a point. I think that since we, as an entire collective group, have not defined what is is to be Black. Therefore, how can we expect white people to agree if we cannot all agree?

(This collective group being African Americans in the US. Why this group specifically? Because this is an issue here in this country, the PC term of african american is correct in that it is black people who are American citizens....people of African descendant whose ancestors were brought to the US against their will. Some like me, who example, slavery is has recent has 5 generations back and the slaveowners name, Heath, still runs in my family as a reminder. I prefer to call myself Black, not african american, but that's the who we are talking about. Africans from african who moved/migrated to the US are not the same, but are added in due to the "african" trait, which I'll simply call melanin just so we all can understand what Rachel claims is impossible unless she submits to DNA testing to confirm, scientifically, she is somehow descended from a black/african person. I'll wait )

I think that is the additional cement we add that you are speaking of, no? But something feels so wrong about asking anyone who is not Black because, in theory, they will never know and they are the majority. We live our lives daily based on how "they" think. Everything we do in society is judged upon what "they" think. At what point do we, as a people, actually say outloud "what YOU think actually does not mean shit. You think what you think means shit it does because society says it matter, but in fact you are just "society" so its a clusterfuck in which I cannot win. But please know I don't need your approval or your acceptance to breathe the same fucking air as you do"?

Of course, your daughter, who is 50% of your Black DNA, can claim her blackness. Or not. That's her prerogative and her choice as the result of you being her father, just as she can claim her whiteness as the result of her mother. She gets the luxury of both choices as Black and White Privilege. That is something you are born with and something no one can take either away from your daughter. But again, that is your daughter's choice to make and she can go either way or both as much as she damn well pleases, bless her heart. I would be lying if i said I have never wished if I could not be white, I could be "mixed" because even that had to be easier than being black. How sad is it that a child knows to feel that way based on the little bit of society you see at a young age (before Internet)? The day my parents had to tell me what a "nigger" is and that I was in fact a nigger was the day my entire worldview changed. Can Rachel say that? That's the struggle of growing up Black. If you can say that, then yes you are probably Black.

Rachel's White Privilege makes her think she can claim being black without an ounce of black DNA simply because she is pale enough to having the fucking luxury to be able to put on a daily costume just so the rest of society accepts lie as truth. White Privilege is also the idea that it matters what you guys think or that you can and do dictate your standard as the status quo for everyone. Her attempt to lie and defraud the government to support her crazy story is the only reason she was being investigated in the first place, thus how the reporter stumbled upon the picture of Rachel and "her dad," which led to her white parents ratting her out. Rachel has never stated she was Black....she said she identifies "as Black." Bitch, I can identify as a fish, but that doesn't make me one does it? If she ever said "i am black" well then I'd think she was just crazy, not criminal and a sociopath. But she knows the distinction between "i am" and "i identify with." She is a duplicitous and shady cunt, indeed. And as a Black person, this is literally testing the fabric of our culture. I can see why someone would stop talking to their parents or siblings over this Rachel debacle as was mentioned on the show. This is not a joke to many and as a people, we are getting realllly tired of us dying and white people getting off scot free like our lives don't matter. Our money matters, doesn't it? Our votes matter, don't they? Our labor matters (even if its often less than a white person), doesn't it? after stealing this land from one brown people, my ancestors built this fucking country under daily torture for free and that does not even matter! WE MATTER!!!! But our lives are being taken like it's a new sport and our government and a lot of society do not even care enough to address it and it's fucking terrifying. Rachel's ruse came out at the wrong time, as this bitch is now just a posterchild and a good scapegoat for us hitting our fucking limit with the bullshit we eat and tolerate because we have to in order to survive.

and I agree with Piff. I am happy that this cunt has started a very needed conversation. But if we are going to have this dialogue, everyone needs to be real with their shit. Black and White and everyone in between. And part of that truth is someone saying we do not need to ask white people what it means to be black because they are the ones treating us this way and white people finally admitting that's a very valid point. We all know it's true. and this does not mean we are all innocent and they are all guilty, but it's now to the point when I leave my house and step foot in the world, I really have a moment when I think about if for some reason I was stopped by a cop or get into an argument with someone in a store, I very well may not make it home alive at the hands of the police. I doubt a white person ever leaves their house thinking those thoughts simply because of the color of their skin and/or appearance. Me, Chemda, Emmy, Miss Herrand, xerx, kultcher - we we all all different shades of brown....the only commonality is that we are not pale white so that everyone who looks at us immediately sees us as a white person aka not a minority. So this conversation may be black versus white at its core due to Rachel, but in actuality it's white versus every other color in the crayon box that is treated differently for not being white based on sight.

That's my Black truth and please know we all still cool, it's not that serious, but it is serious if that makes sense lol. I think that may be the first time I actually put into words something I've being dealing with for 37 years. This is why I'm can finally say "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE!!!!"

This is why I love KATG. Thank you guys for allowing me to hear my truth on air. I know it may seem silly to some, but it means a lot to hear "my voice" on my favorite podcast. I'm sitting here in tears right now because often I do not get to hear a voice that represents me in a place that is not specifically for me (geared towards AA). I do not think many people realize what that's like, to feel you live in a country where you are just a guest who still has to pay for everything. This conversation makes me hopeful that things can change....I just pray I live to see it with my own eyes. And thank you for putting up with me sharing my thoughts here, whether you read it or not, for in an age where that is not a luxury Black people are always afforded or tolerated without racist remarks. I can now say I have found my favorite episode of KATG. Thank you, Keith, Chemda, and Monia.

[thirteen]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

When Katiuska says that she always assumes white people are looking at her "the bad way," and throws all kinds of stereotypes at them, she's adding to it.

This really bothered me as well. And when she saw "milk" while having sex with a white guy.

My longest and most serious relationship was with a person of a different race and partly different culture from my own upbringing and adult life. I'm not white, he is. I never thought I'd be interested in him, but it happened. A lot of people don't let anything get in the way of falling in love. Those race and cultural walls can fall down quite quickly. Of course, cultural differences can come back to bite you in the ass later. It can all add up.

There should've been more "why's" after some of Katiuska's responses. She's obviously well-versed when it comes to some important issues, but as soon as Keith and Chemda asked about her, things went a bit south.

[OnmyojiOmn]

It's not racist to feel squicked out (legit term) by something that makes you uncomfortable in the bedroom, any more than it's necessarily homophobic to feel uncomfortable seeing two men kiss. I don't necessarily agree with everything she said, but don't muddy the discussion with this.