2197: Transrachel

[invader]

Okay, I had to look up what social construct meant. Since race and sex are tangible things then they can't be social constructs but when we talk about the implications of our sex and race that's when it becomes a social construct. Is that right? Someone help.

Also It was interesting to hear a black person's opinion on the topic, but I also feel that in the show and even in the thread it just turned into a pissing contest of oppression. It just makes it sound like you have a chip on your shoulder more than anything else.

Please, please, please stop calling it "black face." Calling it "black face" is hyperbolic at the very least and lessens the aberrant act of actual black face.

[ImStillToni]

What I'm saying is that when we get caught up in defending our "blackness" from usurpers like Dolezal or Chet Hanks or Iggy Izalea, we are just adding legitimacy to the social construct that is race. We are saying, "Yes, we are different from you. You can't have these things, these are black things." We're building walls. We're denying them just like they denied us. How does that help? Where does that get us?

How are we denying them helping us. We can't do ANYTHING without them. The issue with Rachel is she pretended TO BE one of us. She negated her own purpose with her lies.

I think we have a fundamental difference in worldview, Toni. I, too, had my "nigger" moment, but I do not live in fear because of it. Yes, we as a people were made victims, but I don't understand why we embrace that victimhood mindset when we could transcend it. I don't feel judged for being black. 95% of the white people I've interacted with have been fine. If they had prejudices, they did not show them. And that's fine, because we all have prejudices.

Why would I live my life in fear of what the other 5% thinks? You, and Katiuska and Emmy on the show, paint this picture of a world where all these white people are looming over you, judging and sneering. Truth is, most white people probably couldn't give a fuck about you, just like they couldn't give a fuck about every other person who isn't a part of their family/friends/work circle.

You don't feel judged for being Black? I've found when a Black man has a white woman on their arm, they are treated a little better than a black man without. No offense or disrespect, but I find the fact you have lived a perfectly content live without any racism directed toward you a bunch of bullshit. You not picking up in it doesn't mean it wasn't there. You sir could just be naive. Doesn't mean they love you, could be they are just tolerating you. Doesn't mean they don't love you either. My point is, do you ever think White people even have to WORRY about what any minority thinks about them? The fact we can to go back and forth for days does support the theory that our experience is much different. My worldview is i'm a realist, based on my personal experiences and what happens in our world daily thanks to technology. Are you trying to say until it impacts you directly, you are just peachy keen on being a Black man in America? This is why I asked you why don't you care more, but now I can see maybe it just doesn't. And if so, that's fine. but don't sit here and try to go toe to toe if, in theory, you don't care or worry because your life is just fine. Not every Black person has had your experience, doesn't make it any less real or significant.

I never said live in fear, I just pointed out that more often than not, when I go outside it's a thought that runs through my head if even for a split second. It is worse down South than it ever was back up North. In NYC and growing up in RI, I will admit I did not find it as much as an issue as I do down here. I grew up upper middle class. I was often the token in the neighborhood. I talk White. I know how to survive in a White world, if you will. Going from New England to NYC to Georgia opens your eyes a tad. The fact that you, as a Black man, are claiming you never even had that thought at any time, even when being stopped by a cop is is either unrealistic, dishonest, or extremely lucky.

Am I really just that lucky?

Yes, you just may be. Maybe Nettie is like a rabbit's foot.

So let me pose another hypothetical: my daughter grows up essentially white, later in life decides to connect to her black heritage, starts tanning and wearing her hair different, passing herself off as black. Is that okay? Does however much black DNA is in her makeup entitle her to that?

If you, as a Black man, allow your daughter to "grow up essential White" that is more a reflection on you than your daughter, sorry to say. Who are you to take away your daughter's choice to identify however she wants to identify when she is indeed the sum of two different parts? Why wouldn't one raise their child to be equally proud of his or her ancestry and culture, whatever it is?

If the "right" to be black can be boiled down to whether or not you have a certain strand of DNA... don't you see how absurd that is? How ultimately, utterly meaningless?

Is it so absurd? If so, then why don't you identify as White? I mean fuck it, if it means nothing, why can't we do it AND society look at us as white....just like most of society viewed Rachel as Black?

Really? Really really?
I just... I hope you're being hyperbolic. Like, obviously yes the police have unjustifiably killed far too many black people. It's a problem. No argument there. But let's be real. It's not open season on black people.

I want to live in your world buddy. I'm safer than most black people and even I am nervous about getting stopped for no reason by some fucking country bumpkin or continuously calls me Yankee upon hearing my accent and then insinuating the car I'm driving is not mine because I could not possibly afford to pay the note. When I go home to visit my parents and i'm driving past million dollar homes with out of state plates I always get stopped to be asked "if i'm lost" because there is no way in a million years I or my family could ever live there, right? My parents bought their home over 18 years ago, my senior year of high school. But fuck it, driving while Black ain't no thang, I'm just making it all up. Yup, it's hyperbole. Where the fuck do you live that you can commit a crime (speeding) and as a black man, do not even have one second of nervousness occur? I want to live there too, shit.

But when you paint a scenario where every day cops are going out looking for black folks to gun down, it makes it hard to take other points seriously.

When you paint a scenario where no one is out to get us and it's just the 5% or really a few BLACK women who all share the same viewpoint and you feel just safe and secure being Black, all the more power to you buddy. You are the exception, not the norm. Since Rachel's story came out, there has been police assaults against black people, including children, resulting in injury as well as the massacre at AME church. In the past year we have seen how many brothers die at the hands of police and/or white men for what? Wearing a hoodie. Having a stroke behind the wheel. selling cigarettes. Attending weeknight worship. Oh the crimes! But you keep on thinking the world is fucking sunshine and rainbows lawd knows them niggers love to be dramatic!

[Scumhook]

Wow, these black bastards certainly are yappy cunts. I've seen smaller walls (albeit of brick, not text) surrounding supermax prisons.

No wonder we wanted you to sit at the back of the fucking bus.

[ImStillToni]

Originally Posted by Scumhook

Wow, these black bastards certainly are yappy cunts. I've seen smaller walls (albeit of brick, not text) surrounding supermax prisons.

No wonder we wanted you to sit at the back of the fucking bus.

TL : DR Kiss my black ass, Scummo

Hashtag: we be edjumacated

[Lanfear]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

If you, as a Black man, allow your daughter to "grow up essential White" that is more a reflection on you than your daughter, sorry to say. Who are you to take away your daughter's choice to identify however she wants to identify when she is indeed the sum of two different parts? Why wouldn't one raise their child to be equally proud of his or her ancestry and culture, whatever it is?

Both you and Sparrow often throw out the concept of heritage and ancestry and culture and that is always very confusing for me.
Mainly for the obvious 'I better not get caught claiming I'm proud to be German' aspects. I never quite understood the concept of being proud of something I didn't do myself (like being born in a certain part of the world, that other people invented stuff who lived in the same country I do, ...)

But from what Kultcher mentioned above he was raised by a white couple and now he lives with a white woman, how else would he raise his daughter?

I'm sure his daughter will get a good education so she'll learn about history and from the eloquent posts here she will likely hear about race relations and politics but what exactly can he give her beyond that? Basically what I am asking what is 'culture' in this context? And how would he bring that into her life if it's not part of his own?

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

TL : DR Kiss my black ass, Scummo

Anytime, bby <3

[Scumhook]

Originally Posted by Kultcher

I married a white girl (Nettie-poo, go see her boobs in another thread

I didn't read past this bit. After thinking about Nettie's tits, all the rest of your post was "blah blah motorboat blah".

I'm objectifying your posts because of your wife's fantastic rack.

[Enunciated Piffle]

Originally Posted by invader

Okay, I had to look up what social construct meant. Since race and sex are tangible things then they can't be social constructs but when we talk about the implications of our sex and race that's when it becomes a social construct. Is that right? Someone help.

Good question. Near as I can tell, (from what I've read/ actual educated people have told me) is the following.

This argument that Kutlure and Toni are making seem to be: Nature VS Nurture. The nurture aspect comes from the discipline of Sociology. It means that even if you're a white kid, (let's use rapper Eminem IE) that even though you're a white kid because you live in a predominately black neighborhood; you're gonna exhibit black culture traits. Your 'society' nurtured these traits.

The nature aspect comes from your biology. This might be a misnomer however. The discipline of anthropology shows that little traces in DNA aka mtDNA prove that there really is no such thing as 'race.' We're all just humans. Exhibiting different skin tone to adapt to region/ climate.

Why are people from Denmark/ Sweden so incredibly white? It's no coincidence that there is less sunlight in this region. Your body craves vital vitamin D to exist. So you adapt. Vice versa the same could be said about having dark skin. Closer to the sun = darker pigment.

I can't explain it. So I'll just say this. Google: mtDNA.

Here's what I know to be fact. People didn't just suddenly exist in Russia, or Africa, or the North Pole. We all came from the same ancestors. Over time. Over continents. It had an impact on our DNA. Body structure changed. Skin color adapted.

I dunno. I'm high. That's my understanding.

oh. Also. Scumhook is a real piece of shit when it comes to racial debate. But his commentary on Wall of Text - spot on

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by Hennessy

How long have you been listening?? Welcome to the family.

Almost the whole time? I'm not easily riled.

Anyway, tackling a few points. You write:

Originally Posted by Hennessy

She may not be black. She may not have the experience of being racially excluded or judged for being dark skinned. But she can claim her history, roots and familial journey

Then in answer to the question of "What gives someone a legitimate claim to blackness?", you say:

Originally Posted by Hennessy

Our color. "Blackness" is made of many races and cultures and genes. Our color gives us a legitimate claim.

Is that not a contradiction? Or am I misunderstand you?

Originally Posted by Hennessy

Does that not make me "blacker," by your definition- in comparison to Rachel Dolezal?

I don't think I ever defined blackness. Literally the entire purpose of everything I've written is to try and point out that "blackness" is a super complicated thing.

I don't know what "blackness" means. But I know the blackness that was represented on this episode was not the blackness I feel. What makes one more valid than the other?

What I'm digging at in all of this is trying to pin down the intersections between oppression, skin color, and bloodline. How far can you pull one of those strings before a person can claim blackness? I don't think it's as simple as everyone is making it out to be.

Originally Posted by Hennessy

Do you feel black?

You're right, "feeling" your race is a nebulous concept. I "feel" white insofar as I am surrounded by white people who generally accept me. It's a passive thing. There are some rare times when I feel black, when I feel unwelcome - that's more of an active thing. Does that make sense?

As for how that applies to Dolezal, I'm not sure. Did she feel black in the same way that I feel white (passively)?

Originally Posted by Hennessy

In general, women, people of color, old folks, intersexed and trans people specifically are all victims of a prejudiced based on their outer physical appearance that they can not help

Yes, but there is a line that gets crossed sometimes. Living in a victim mindset can make a black person see all white people as hateful, ignorant racists. It can make a woman see all men as violent rapists. Those things simply aren't true.

The problem I have with all that is that it undermines the real conversation. When an ultra-feminist says that all men are rapists, it makes all of us non-rapist guys think, "This lady is nuts." Whatever valid points she might be making get lost because we either a) write her off entirely as crazy, or b) focus so intently on debunking the idea that all men are rapists, that the conversation grinds to a halt.

Originally Posted by Hennessy

I think it was made clear that this was a personal fear Kati has based on her actual experiences actual racism and paranoid reactions from people, based on her being brown.

To clarify, the point I was trying to make about living in upstate NY near a bunch of probably-racists was that I am probably more likely to run into a racist than Katiuska. Just statistically. I know I am going to get shit for this, but I'll be honest: I felt like the picture she was painting was hyperbolic, and I found some of her views about white people regressive and prejudicial.

To illustrate, let's say I perceive the level of racism in my day-to-day life as 3 out of 10. I feel like Katiuska is at like 8 out of 10 (at least that is how she came off to me). I can't reconcile that big a gulf, and that's why I am skeptical.

I know, it's not my place to say, I don't live her life, etc. And I'm sorry for that, just trying to be transparent here about why I feel the way I do.

And the "Nigga, please" was obviously a joke. So was the big dick thing. This is heavy stuff. Trying to bring some levity.

Originally Posted by Hennessy

Why do you think I was "judging her?"

I don't remember specifically. I just recall some very harsh words. I may be misremembering, and I imagine you were playing it up for the show. So, comment withdrawn.

Originally Posted by Hennessy

LOLZ. You silly. <- in regards to Dolezal experiencing oppression while "black"

But why? You're acting like my argument is too ridiculous to even comprehend, but I don't think it is. I should have chosen my words more carefully.

I wasn't trying to suggest that if someone called Rachel Dolezal a nigger, that that is equal to calling an actual black person a nigger. But it's not irrelevant. It's not without meaning. She would feel something. She would feel that hate.

What's that worth? Fuck if I know. But I don't believe that just because she could choose to go back to being white if things "got real," that that invalidates everything.

Also this begs the question: if Rachel Dolezal had gotten some kind of (imaginary) surgery that permanently made her black, took away that choice, would we interpret any discrimination against her differently?

[Kultcher]

Originally Posted by ImStillToni

You don't feel judged for being Black? ...Are you trying to say until it impacts you directly, you are just peachy keen on being a Black man in America? ... The fact that you, as a Black man, are claiming you never even had that thought at any time, even when being stopped by a cop is is either unrealistic, dishonest, or extremely lucky.

I didn't say I never felt judged. Of course I have thought, "What do these people think that I'm married to this white woman?" - I think that one in regards to BOTH races. I have thought, "I hope no one questions if my daughter is really mine because she doesn't look like me." Of course I have thought, "Maybe I would've gotten x, y, or z if I wasn't a person of color."

But what I'm saying is that I don't let that color my perception. I don't ascribe prejudicial thoughts and feelings to the white people that populate my area. When I meet a new white person, I don't act differently and I don't assume what they are thinking about my skin color.

My base assumption is that 90% of white people, at least up here, are relatively inoffensive levels of racist. As in, they may accidentally say something "white privilege-y" but there's no malice in their hearts.

Of course there's the invisible racism. I can do nothing about that, other than trying to educate people in general about institutionalized racism, which I do. Overt racism I'll deal with when next it happens.

I assure you, I care about the greater "black struggle" (quotes because I feel uncomfortable using the term, not because I think it's illegitimate) I argue with people about institutionalized racism all the time. BUT, I think that sometimes, sometimes the case can be overstated. I think that sometimes people can see boogeymen where there are none. Or rather, they see 10 boogeymen where there's only 5. (And again this isn't just black people, all kinds of diffrent social groups can fall into this trap).

If you, as a Black man, allow your daughter to "grow up essential White" that is more a reflection on you than your daughter, sorry to say. Who are you to take away your daughter's choice to identify however she wants to identify when she is indeed the sum of two different parts? Why wouldn't one raise their child to be equally proud of his or her ancestry and culture, whatever it is?

Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. WHOA. Here's the thing: I don't have any black culture to pass down to my daughter. If I were to make a big show of how she has black ancestry, I would be engaging in a fucking farce, because that's not who I am. If she gets raised essentially white, it's because our lives are essentially white. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I'm not obliged to go and connect with black culture or the black community just because I have dark skin.

Obviously, I can't hide the fact that she is part black, I'm sure there will come a time when she asks why her skin is light and mine is dark - just as I asked my adoptive parents the same question. But beyond the genetics, for me, what really is there?

Is it so absurd? If so, then why don't you identify as White?

I got a little carried away there - I'm dreaming of Utopia and shit. In the real world, the racial construct exists and we are bound to it and that sucks.

Point I was trying to make though, is that the line between "black" and "white" is real thin. Like we've been discussing, my daughter can claim blackness, despite the only connection to blackness being a few strands of DNA.

Ultimately, where I'm struggling is how <25% genetic "blackness" on a white-skinned person is unquestionably black, but 90% cultural "blackness" on a white-skinned person is unquestionably not. If tomorrow we find out Dolezal has black blood somewhere in there, and that's enough to call her black and clear her - if that's the only difference - then honestly what the fuck are we even doing?

But fuck it, driving while Black ain't no thang, I'm just making it all up. Yup, it's hyperbole. Where the fuck do you live that you can commit a crime (speeding) and as a black man, do not even have one second of nervousness occur? I want to live there too, shit.

I'm absolutely not saying it doesn't happen. I know it happens, some places much much much worse than others.

But no, I don't really feel fear. Because I think the odds of running into a cop who is so racist he's going to find an excuse to kill/beat/arrest me without cause are pretty slim. Being afraid of that is like being afraid of someone breaking into your house or suddenly dropping dead from a stroke at age 33. It's a possibility, but unlikely, and there's nothing I can do about it, so why stress?

And in the more likely scenario that I get a cop who is racist enough to just be a dickbag, oh well. That sucks. That's a problem and I'll take what action I can to fight it. The next time I get pulled over I'll continue to assume I'll get a "normal" cop, because most cops, at least here in fantasyland, are normal cops.

Just out of curiosity, what percentage of cops do you think are racist enough to pull some shit on a generally law-abiding black person? (as in threats of violence up through straight killing your ass).

Look, again, I'm not trying to say that everything is peachy. Shit is fucked up and unjust. Too many lives lost needlessly, agreed, agreed, agreed. I recognize that I am much more likely to be shot by a cop than a white person is. But here's the thing: I'm not likely to get shot, period. Most people, regardless of color, don't get shot in their lifetimes.

Honestly, it's just the numbers. Don't conflate me not feeling afraid with me not caring or not recognizing there's a problem.

Which brings me to this conclusion: Rachel Dolezal or anyone else who wants to pretend to be black is among the least of our problems. We're throwing a fit over a woman who, motives notwithstanding, furthered the cause of equality. For all we know, had she not been outed, she might've continued to do good work until the end of her days.

Is she really the enemy we should be attacking? Or is this just another engineered distraction, another way to keep us squabbling amongst ourselves instead of fighting the real war?