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Old 02-17-2018, 07:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lord of the Cock Rings View Post
Could you please elaborate on the LOTS of reasons? In my experience it's been ALL conspiracy and autism so I'm interested in why you would think that's just a small part.
--Personal experience after vaccination (kid gets sick, has a really bad reaction etc) that caused a parent to not vaccinate that kid again or remaining kids. There are troves of personal accounts of negative reactions to vaccines you can find on YouTube. These are scary and turn people away from vaccination.

--Distrust of big pharma (I would consider distrust of big pharma pretty fn valid but that's my personal shit, and I would not consider that in and of itself conspiracy, but that could very easily turn into conspiracy depending on what one believes the endgame to be if they think bp has some weird agenda, I don't know)

--Ingredients that may cause harm; i.e.: heavy metals (falls more under distrust of big pharma)

--Risk of getting sick from vaccine vs risk of getting sick from what the vaccine is attempting to prevent

--Physicians not being able to tell if a person has a lowered immune system, which can cause the vaccine to have different side effects than if a person is well


As for conspiracy, I kind of get why this swirls around vaccines a lot.
I think most of the conspiracy stuff comes from a general distrust of the US government as a whole, as well as the major medical and food associations (AMA, FDA, all the...... As?). We see over and over and over how lobbyists for various organizations and corporations help to buy politicians in order to pass laws that affect these very organizations. I think that's par for the course in our country, no?

So it seems many our laws are paid for and the very people who run corporations who benefit very often go on to land positions within those government organizations or vice versa. I don't know how we would ever be expected to trust them if you ask me. I think that forms the basis of distrust (and spirals a bit within conspiracy circles) for not just vaccines but for anything that's supposed to be "good for us" that any governmental organization is not just recommending but is heartily pushing. Of course it feels fishy when they are fucking you all day every day in every conceivable way but then strangely care that you're getting your shots.

I don't buy the conspiracy stuff because I can't see an endgame that makes sense if it was some big plan to ...? (No idea.) But I see how distrust roots because of the wrongdoing of many in positions of power, and how that can grow in to conspiracies because people want reasons that go beyond money and power.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I have talked with someone who was wary of giving their baby a Vitamin K shot after birth because they had concerns. Literally no child ever dies from it, and not giving it creates a mountain of dead babies. On the one hand, nothing serious ever, on the other hand, tons of babies just suddenly die. There are websites and alternative medicine people that will tell you lies about the Vitamin K shot and then sell you bogus nonsense.

Anti-science, anti-vaccine, anti-medicine people intentionally spread enough misinformation, lies, and propaganda to make the issue appear contentious, and then they get to say, "But we just have these concerns? What is so wrong with addressing these concerns?"

The people against vaccines have nothing. Assumptions that government is bad, assumptions that money is bad, assumptions that people with money are evil, assumptions that "chemicals" are bad, distortions and misinterpretations of legitimate published material, and flat out lies.

Anyone reading this thread should be aware that "concern" is the goal of the people who profit from anti-vaccine positions. Since their position has zero evidence, it is impossible to present a sound and convincing argument for it. The best they can achieve is promote "concern". All they have to do find the limit of a person's knowledge of science or medicine, and then tell them a lie one level beyond your understanding, and anyone who knows the truth who talks to that same person later has to spend a hundred times the effort to give all the requisite information for the victim to understand why what they were told is a lie.

Some concern is legitimate, but the majority of it is stoked by scam artists and charlatans and quacks who are willing to lie and watch children die just to sell a few books, or sell overpriced sugar pills, or sell a bogus cancer cure.

Remember, when someone implies malevolence rather than proves it to you, that's likely because the malevolence can't be proven, and one reason why something can't be proven is because it isn't true. Remember that you could view a lobbyist or CEO for a pharmaceutical company as someone who built a career out of defending or running a company that saves the lives of thousands of people. Is it convincing to just imply that these people are malevolent or without conscience?

Consider that this person, who said there are LOTS of reasons to distrust the evidence of the safety and efficacy of vaccines, said the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
--Personal experience after vaccination (kid gets sick, has a really bad reaction etc) that caused a parent to not vaccinate that kid again or remaining kids. There are troves of personal accounts of negative reactions to vaccines you can find on YouTube. These are scary and turn people away from vaccination.
These kinds of reactions are meticulously documented, known about, and published for public knowledge. Any assumption that these incidences are beyond known rates of occurance requires a conspiracy theory.
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Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
--Distrust of big pharma (I would consider distrust of big pharma pretty fn valid but that's my personal shit, and I would not consider that in and of itself conspiracy, but that could very easily turn into conspiracy depending on what one believes the endgame to be if they think bp has some weird agenda, I don't know)
They admitted that this is conspiracy theory fodder.
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Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
--Ingredients that may cause harm; i.e.: heavy metals (falls more under distrust of big pharma)
Vaccines are proven safe and effective. The ingredients are tested and proven safe. Assumptions otherwise require a belief in a conspiracy theory to explain the evidence of safety away.

So 3 out of the first 5 points are about or are common talking points of conspiracy theories. And then what follows is the majority of the post, and it is largely jusitifying conspiracy theories, ending with:
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Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
I don't buy the conspiracy stuff because I can't see an endgame that makes sense if it was some big plan to ...? (No idea.) But I see how distrust roots because of the wrongdoing of many in positions of power, and how that can grow in to conspiracies because people want reasons that go beyond money and power.
Literally all this person sees wrong with believing in a conspiracy theory is the end of the story they are sold, not the lack of evidence.

None of what I say here is meant personally or is targeted in any way, but there are children in the real world who live or die based on what is said about vaccines by people on the internet. With that knowledge, I can't let anything doubtful of them pass by without me giving the corresponding counterpoints.

Last edited by Cretaceous Bob; 02-18-2018 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 02-19-2018, 12:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Maybe this helps:

Big Pharma ( like my employer) makes no money on vaccines, especially those for children. This stuff isn't new, it works, needs no emprovment, and is rather cheap.
And with no money I mean, little compared to other pharmaceuticals.
Big money is in new pharmaceuticals.


We don't see the effects of the diseases we are vaccinating for, so people think they are not so bad.
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Old 02-19-2018, 08:06 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
...
I don't buy the conspiracy stuff because I can't see an endgame that makes sense if it was some big plan to ...? (No idea.) But I see how distrust roots because of the wrongdoing of many in positions of power, and how that can grow in to conspiracies because people want reasons that go beyond money and power.
Anecdotal evidence is tricky because in a lot of cases its simply not evidence but rather a "a neighbor told me that theirs cousins wife that lives 5 hours away had this terrible reaction once." And if its a youtube video that shows the anecdote and then tells you how to prevent this with some "tonic/globuli/vitamin/energy crystal" that they'd be happy to share the link to ...
And in other cases its the same effect as always where the one bad example gets a huuuuuuuuge reporting and the thousands of lives saved you don't hear about because after all they didn't get ill so there is nothing to report.

And I'm sorry that I'm putting you on the spot like this but the points you listed (anecdotal youtube videos, big pharma, heavy metals, getting sick from the vaccine because it works wrong) for me all fall under conspiracy theory.

And if your kid or you yourself has an real confirmed immune deficiency (which is super rare) that is something you probably already figured out and I'm not a doctor so nobody should listen to that advice but 2 minutes of googling tell me that its recommended in that case to vaccinate as much as possible and definitely have everybody around that person vaccinated to protect them from getting infected.
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Old 02-19-2018, 09:49 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Just want you guys to know it's nice to have a civil discussion on all of this.

Question, why do you personally think that the vaccine issue is so split in terms of what information is available to the general public? By that I mean if I google "why we need vaccines" and then google "why should I not get vaccinated" there seem to be an equal amount of insurmountable information on both sides, reliable or not.

Why do you think this is? It sounds like both sides believe that the opposing view creates some benefit for some malevolent force, wherein I think all people who vaccinate believe that they're doing what is best for themselves and their families and that all people who do not vaccinate are doing what they believe to be best for themselves and their families. But both sides seem to think there is sinister benefit somewhere. What do you think?
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:07 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Is anecdotal evidence (to you) worth considering or not? I think most people take sides on this based on this. Many people have fears based on anecdotal information and many people believe it shouldn't be considered at all because it's not "scientific" or provable within the scientific method or because much anecdotal information lies outside individual studies.
If anecdotal evidence is something you would like to consider then please consider this:
My mother was born in 1940 (I'm old). The Diphtheria vaccine was becoming widely available around that time. My mother's parents were debating about whether or not they should get her vaccinated. The debate went something like:
"I'm from a family of 11 children and none of us ever got diphtheria"
"I'm from a family of 13 kids and none of us ever got it either, maybe it's not so important"

They were overheard by a coworker who said, "I was from a family of 9 kids. When diphtheria came through our house, I was the only child who survived. get her vaccinated" and they did.

Since you don't hear about diphtheria outbreaks anymore (thanks to the effectiveness of the fucking vaccine) you think "ahh what's the worst that could happen?" Your kids could need junior sized coffins, that's what.

Diphtheria vaccine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria_vaccine

It's a short read and well worth your time.
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:18 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Everyone who works in a Pharma company gets his kids vaccinated. Every CEO. Why if it's so bad?
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Old 02-19-2018, 10:27 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astrokahn View Post
Just want you guys to know it's nice to have a civil discussion on all of this.

Question, why do you personally think that the vaccine issue is so split in terms of what information is available to the general public? By that I mean if I google "why we need vaccines" and then google "why should I not get vaccinated" there seem to be an equal amount of insurmountable information on both sides, reliable or not.

Why do you think this is? It sounds like both sides believe that the opposing view creates some benefit for some malevolent force, wherein I think all people who vaccinate believe that they're doing what is best for themselves and their families and that all people who do not vaccinate are doing what they believe to be best for themselves and their families. But both sides seem to think there is sinister benefit somewhere. What do you think?
Honestly? Americans are cray cray on a few topics and healthcare is one of them.

If a whole country cultivates a "we can and will do it by ourselves" attitude then not believing in herd immunity makes sense?

Also you guys mistrust your government a lot more than some other countries do (that's why you need to have alllll the guns right?) so I think that makes a more fertile ground for conspiracy theories to take hold.
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:08 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lord of the Cock Rings View Post
If anecdotal evidence is something you would like to consider then please consider this:
My mother was born in 1940 (I'm old). The Diphtheria vaccine was becoming widely available around that time. My mother's parents were debating about whether or not they should get her vaccinated. The debate went something like:
"I'm from a family of 11 children and none of us ever got diphtheria"
"I'm from a family of 13 kids and none of us ever got it either, maybe it's not so important"

They were overheard by a coworker who said, "I was from a family of 9 kids. When diphtheria came through our house, I was the only child who survived. get her vaccinated" and they did.

Since you don't hear about diphtheria outbreaks anymore (thanks to the effectiveness of the fucking vaccine) you think "ahh what's the worst that could happen?" Your kids could need junior sized coffins, that's what.

Diphtheria vaccine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphtheria_vaccine

It's a short read and well worth your time.
What I meant more is if you see or hear people's personal stories of injury (in particular) after vaccination, is that worth considering at all when deciding on vaccinating or not?
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Old 02-19-2018, 11:11 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Everyone who works in a Pharma company gets his kids vaccinated. Every CEO. Why if it's so bad?
Apia I am not ignoring you, I have lots of questions for you because you work in the medical field, I'm just at work so I am tight on time. They're coming! (The questions)
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