Holy Ballz!

[dzagama]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

Name one.

Is this a chicken and egg question? At some point, SOMEONE must have gotten by without government. Who's to say it can't and doesn't happen?

[MalcolmSmith]

Originally Posted by dzagama

Is this a chicken and egg question? At some point, SOMEONE must have gotten by without government. Who's to say it can't and doesn't happen?

It's not circular cause and consequence. It doesn't matter if you can, you don't. That's the point.

[dzagama]

Originally Posted by Staph Infection

This is the reason why we're in a recession you fucking ignorant dipshit

I love you, too. To play my part, what causes progressions?

[dzagama]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

It's not circular cause and consequence. It doesn't matter if you can, you don't. That's the point.

Yeah, I suppose government is a nebulous term. In my mind, I view 'government aid' as financial handouts, not infrastructure. Maybe that's where we are diverging.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

It's not circular cause and consequence. It doesn't matter if you can, you don't. That's the point.

Wrong. Come on, turn your brain back on. We've talked before on other thread about businesses and the cost of running those businesses. It is directly relevant to the question of whether or not the cost of government is appropriate to value it delivers. Assistance is not assistance if it consumes more than it produces. Empowerment is not empowerment if it restricts more than it creates freedom.

[MalcolmSmith]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Wrong. Come on, turn your brain back on. We've talked before on other thread about businesses and the cost of running those businesses. It is directly relevant to the question of whether or not the cost of government is appropriate to value it delivers. Assistance is not assistance if it consumes more than it produces. Empowerment is not empowerment if it restricts more than it creates freedom.

You're not showing any basis for these assumptions. In my opinion, our system, temporary crises notwithstanding, is a bargain. Millions of people the world over would not be wanting to come to America if the costs were greater than the benefit and/or it was not an opportunity for greater freedom and empowerment. The U.S. is still the best deal on the planet. Apparently, almost everyone knows it.

And, the cost of government is totally irrelevant. Most of our $$ are fake. If our system is working, it's worth something, if it's not, it's not worth something. The value of the big pool of fake money can fluctuate more in an instant than all the tax credits, welfare payments, etc., combined. It's irrelevant. So, what's the deal, are you being crushed by an oppressive government? Taxes too high? Are your freedoms being squashed? You sound like you've been victimized? Share your story. Maybe we can help.

Here's my story. I am aggravated. In the 1970s, capitalists discovered they could make more money from finance than enterprise. And they started liquidating enterprise. Today, we have an economy that is based on 70% consumption (that doesn't work). The profits have been bled off. The well has run dry. The people in the middle, and at the bottom, the motor of our economy, are out of gas. The economy has ground to a halt. We have a big giant humongous ball of money sitting at the top of the income distribution and they don't want to spend it. I'm in business, the wife is in fund-raising, and we're aggravated because my customers are out of cash (and credit), and her clients are cocooning themselves with their piles of cash. Someone broke our economy, and it wasn't the little guy. The cost of government is wholly irrelevant compared to the costs of fear and the effects of the accretion of wealth.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

You're not showing any basis for these assumptions. In my opinion, our system, temporary crises notwithstanding, is a bargain. Millions of people the world over would not be wanting to come to America if the costs were greater than the benefit and/or it was not an opportunity for greater freedom and empowerment. The U.S. is still the best deal on the planet. Apparently, almost everyone knows it.

And, the cost of government is totally irrelevant. Most of our $$ are fake. If our system is working, it's worth something, if it's not, it's not worth something. The value of the big pool of fake money can fluctuate more in an instant than all the tax credits, welfare payments, etc., combined. It's irrelevant. So, what's the deal, are you being crushed by an oppressive government? Taxes too high? Are your freedoms being squashed? You sound like you've been victimized? Share your story. Maybe we can help.

Here's my story. I am aggravated. In the 1970s, capitalists discovered they could make more money from finance than enterprise. And they started liquidating enterprise. Today, we have an economy that is based on 70% consumption (that doesn't work). The profits have been bled off. The well has run dry. The people in the middle, and at the bottom, the motor of our economy, are out of gas. The economy has ground to a halt. We have a big giant humongous ball of money sitting at the top of the income distribution and they don't want to spend it. I'm in business, the wife is in fund-raising, and we're aggravated because my customers are out of cash (and credit), and her clients are cocooning themselves with their piles of cash. Someone broke our economy, and it wasn't the little guy. The cost of government is wholly irrelevant compared to the costs of fear and the effects of the accretion of wealth.

Several of the things that you are saying are correct. So what was it in the early 1970's that made finance rather than production so appealing than actual production?

[MalcolmSmith]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Several of the things that you are saying are correct. So what was it in the early 1970's that made finance rather than production so appealing than actual production?

Post WWII, the U.S. established a global footprint, opening up new markets, we were the producer for the world. Uncle Sam was the man and the upside potential for investment in enterprise seemed limitless. Then, we discovered our Achilles' Heel... our addiction to foreign oil. Upset at our involvement with Israel, OPEC fired the oil bomb - 1973 oil embargo, and the U.S. economy tanked. People who bet on the upside of the U.S. economy got burned. So, Wall Street returned to pre-Depression Era strategies that enabled them to bet on both the upside and the downside. U.S. wins, they win. U.S. loses, they win. A win/win scenario for Wall Street.

And hey, look, we not only opened up new markets, we opened up new sources of cheap labor. And cargo ship and electronic logistics turned that labor supply into a gold mine. So, you could make money betting for or against the U.S. economy, and you could make fat gobs of cash converting family-wage American jobs into low-wage jobs and slave labor in unregulated foreign countries. The giant sucking sound commenced decades before Ross Perot predicted it. In the early 1970s, we shifted from producer to consumer, and the stage was set for our eventual collapse. American working wages stagnated for 30+ years.

Everything was OK, though, as long as the middle-class and working-poor had access to credit. First, they used conventional loans, then credit cards, then home equity loans, and second mortgages, then sub-prime loans, and cash advances. They went from investment, to living-from-paycheck-to-paycheck, to living-from-next-week's-paycheck-to next-week's-paycheck, to now, living from the unemployment check. And here we are today, broke down on the side of the road.

Now, the money is still there. The money from WWII to now is still there, it's just stuck at the top of the income distribution. The top end of the spectrum increased their wealth 300% in just the last 8-years. It's there. There's only one way to get us out of our mess. We've got to punch a hole in that big ball of cash and get it flowing again. Then, we have to balance finance with enterprise. We can't use more than we produce. And we have to maintain a foundation of stable, family-wage jobs.

So, what is Obama up to? He and Geithner are playing a complicated game of chess with the power elite - the power elite still very much want to keep playing finance, and they don't want to change the rules. If Obama pushed too hard on the ball of cash, he'll end up at the bottom of the Potomac. So, he and Geithner are trying to milk the clock. They want to keep the credit flowing long enough to start to make the changes that need to be make. It's like Omaba is trying to diffuse the doomsday machine. Should he cut the red wire, or the blue one? And don't touch the green one, or we're dead. I'm watching this like I'm in a Bond pic. It's so real, it is real. Scary $%^&!

[dzagama]

See, I had a feeling that Malcolm and I were on the same side, just on different streets.

So the economy exploded because of financial douchery. I'll agree to that. The money and wealth we thought we had created was an illusion, money chasing money. Correct.

I think we sort of and sort of don't agree on the solution. I feel the solution is a social one, in the long term. The reason India and China are exploding is because they make shit, and they have a culture of FORCING their kids to become scientists, engineers, and doctors. In this country, we tell people that doing useless things is fine, as long as money magically appears, and they have a passion for it. *gag*

From my experience, I've seen that forcing people to become engineers creates mindless, cheating, shitty engineers. That's where I think the U.S. has the ability to be different. I try to show the kids I work with that science is fucking magic. The hope is that they become scientists, instead of useless quants.

I resist government for the same reason the left opposes government. When you give government the opening, it starts telling you what you can or can't smoke, who you can or can't fuck, what countries are or aren't evil, what gods you can and can't worship.

Government has the potential to be a great thing, but fuck it. The state gives humans and inordinate amount of power over my life. I'd rather figure out a solution without government getting involved.

[dzagama]

Originally Posted by MalcolmSmith

Name one.

Another shot at it.

You sound like yoav in the Creationism... thread:

http://www.keithandthegirl.com/forum...tml#post528234

It's hard to deny the influence of government, just like it's hard to deny the influence of theism. That doesn't mean that God is the answer.