Some damage control by US forces

[lickmyballssuckmy]

I agree with Rock. We make dictators and we get rid of them when we're through with them. All in the name of manipulating the balance of power in a region is my guess for the question, "Why?"

And I agree with Slugymay. I don't think releasing prisoners is damage control because it has no effect on the amount of hatewaves headed our way from around the world.

Having someone that is opposed to our actions point at it and call it a smoke screen is proof that no matter what we do, those opposed to us hate what we just did. We just released a bunch of people who were either innocent or terrorists and those who hate us should be dancing in the streets, not going, "Look what those fuckers did now. They're trying to make us like them."

[lickmyballssuckmy]

Interesting turn of events on Haditha. Somebody who was actually there recounts the events. Now, at least, everybody can choose between this account and the Kerry/Murtha account.

All the upheaval you are talking about is not because of the actions of the military. It's because of the actions of irresponsible journalists if this Marine's account is true. I read it very slowly and it sounds credible based on my (limited) experiences with patrolling in built-up areas.

If you're being shot at from a house, you fire back. Marines carry lots of firepower and know how to use it. If bad guys are hiding behind women and children, these things happen. It's how these guys manipulate the world media to make the U.S. look bad and the media either falls for it every time or is willing to help these fucktards.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...001129_pf.html

I will post the full text in case this link doesn't work at some point in the future.

Originally Posted by deuce

I will tell you what happened there. This article just shows a very real facet in this war which sucks ass. The waves caused by the exposure of the Haditha incident and fearing upheaval from local insurgents, the Government compromises everyone's safety by releasing these prisoners in order to appease them. Big win for the insurgents. Its flip flopping moves like these which makes me continue to ask why should this mess be up to the US to sort out? Fuck them, Let them get their own act together, we did our best, they are no threat to anyone now, "sort it out, Iraqis"

[lickmyballssuckmy]

Marine Says Rules Were Followed
Sergeant Describes Hunt for Insurgents in Haditha, Denies Coverup
By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 11, 2006; A01

A sergeant who led a squad of Marines during the incident in Haditha, Iraq, that left as many as 24 civilians dead said his unit did not intentionally target any civilians, followed military rules of engagement and never tried to cover up the shootings, his attorney said.
Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, 26, told his attorney that several civilians were killed Nov. 19 when his squad went after insurgents who were firing at them from inside a house. The Marine said there was no vengeful massacre, but he described a house-to-house hunt that went tragically awry in the middle of a chaotic battlefield.
"It will forever be his position that everything they did that day was following their rules of engagement and to protect the lives of Marines," said Neal A. Puckett, who represents Wuterich in the ongoing investigations into the incident. "He's really upset that people believe that he and his Marines are even capable of intentionally killing innocent civilians."
Wuterich's detailed version of what happened in the Haditha neighborhood is the first public account from a Marine who was on the ground when the shootings occurred. As the leader of 1st Squad, 3rd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, Wuterich was in the convoy of Humvees that was hit by a roadside bomb. He entered the house from which the Marines believed enemy fire was originating and made the initial radio reports to his company headquarters about what was going on, Puckett said.
The reports that Marines wantonly shot unarmed civilians in Haditha, including women and children, allege one of the most shocking, and potentially damaging, incidents of the Iraq war. A criminal investigation looking into possible charges of murder against half a dozen Marines is underway. A separate probe is examining whether Marines tried to cover up the shootings, and whether commanders were negligent in failing to investigate the deaths.
Three Marine officers have been relieved of command. In the absence of a public response from Marine Corps officials -- who are declining to comment to preserve the integrity of the investigation -- reports of what happened in the western Iraqi town have been leaking out piecemeal from the Haditha neighborhood and in Washington.
Wuterich's version contradicts that of the Iraqis, who described a massacre of men, women and children after a bomb killed a Marine. Haditha residents have said that innocent civilians were executed, that some begged for their lives before being shot and that children were killed indiscriminately.
Wuterich told his attorney in initial interviews over nearly 12 hours last week that the shootings were the unfortunate result of a methodical sweep for enemies in a firefight. Two attorneys for other Marines involved in the incident said Wuterich's account is consistent with those they had heard from their clients.
Kevin B. McDermott, who is representing Capt. Lucas M. McConnell, the Kilo Company commander, said Wuterich and other Marines informed McConnell on the day of the incident that at least 15 civilians were killed by "a mixture of small-arms fire and shrapnel as a result of grenades" after the Marines responded to an attack from a house.
McConnell was relieved of his command in April for "failure to investigate," according to McDermott. But the lawyer said McConnell told him that he reported the high number of civilian deaths to the 3rd Battalion executive officer that afternoon and that within a few days the battalion's intelligence chief gave a PowerPoint presentation to Marine commanders.
"It wasn't a situation that dawned on him as the captain of Kilo where it was like, 'Okay, guys, we need to conduct a more thorough investigation,' " McDermott said. "Everywhere up the chain, they had ample access to this thing."
Gary Myers, a civilian attorney for a Marine who was with Wuterich that day, said the Marines followed standard operating procedures when they "cleared" the houses, using fragmentation grenades and gunshots to respond to an immediate threat.
"I can confirm that that version of events is consistent with our position on this case," Myers said. "What this case comes down to is: What were the rules of engagement, and were they followed?"
The defense attorneys said the rules of engagement -- which vary depending on the mission, level of danger and other factors -- are likely to become a central element of their cases because those rules guide how troops can use deadly force on the battlefield. One Marine official said such rules usually require positive identification of a target before shooting but noted that the rules are often circumstantial.
"Once you go back over it, you have to determine if they applied the rules," the Marine official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the Marine Corps does not discuss rules of engagement. "Did they feel threatened? Did they perceive hostile intent or hostile action?"
On Nov. 19, Wuterich's squad left its headquarters at Firm Base Sparta in Haditha at 7 a.m. on a daily mission to drop off Iraqi army troops at a nearby checkpoint. "It was like any other day, we just had to watch out for IEDs [improvised explosive devices] and any other activity that looked suspicious," said Marine Cpl. James Crossan, 21, in an interview from his home in North Bend, Wash. He was riding in the four-Humvee convoy as it turned left onto Chestnut Road, heading west at 7:15 a.m.
Shortly after the turn, a bomb buried in the road ripped through the last Humvee. The blast instantly killed the driver, Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20. Crossan, who was in the front passenger seat, remembered hearing someone yell, "Get some morphine." Then he passed out.
Wuterich, driving the third Humvee in the line, immediately stopped the convoy and got out, Puckett said.
Puckett said that while Wuterich was evaluating the scene, Marines noticed a white, unmarked car full of "military-aged men" lingering near the bomb site. When Marines ordered the men to stop, they ran; Puckett said it was standard procedure at the time for the Marines to shoot suspicious people fleeing a bombing, and the Marines opened fire, killing four or five men.
"The first thing he thought was it could be a vehicle-borne bomb or these guys could be ready to do a drive-by shooting," Puckett said, explaining that the Marines were on alert for such coordinated, multi-stage attacks.
Iraqis in the Haditha neighborhood interviewed in recent weeks said the vehicle was a taxi carrying a group of students to their homes and that the driver tried to back away from the site, fleeing in fear. One account said that the Marines shot the men while they were still in the car.
Wuterich officially reported to his headquarters that there had been a makeshift bomb and called for a Quick Reaction Force, Puckett said. The first group encountered an unexploded bomb on another route -- fueling concerns that insurgents were mounting an attack on the daily morning convoy -- and a second force headed out. That group, including Marines with the 3rd Squad and the platoon's leader, a young second lieutenant, arrived minutes later.
Wuterich told Puckett that no one was emotionally rattled by Terrazas's death because everyone had a job to do, and everyone was concerned about further casualties. As Wuterich began briefing the platoon leader, Puckett said, AK-47 shots rang out from residences on the south side of the road, and the Marines ducked.
A corporal with the unit leaned over to Wuterich and said he saw the shots coming from a specific house, and after a discussion with the platoon leader, they decided to clear the house, according to Wuterich's account.
"There's a threat, and they went to eliminate the threat," Puckett said.
A four-man team of Marines, including Wuterich, kicked in the door and found a series of empty rooms, noticing quickly that there was one room with a closed door and people rustling behind it, Puckett said. They then kicked in that door, tossed a fragmentation grenade into the room, and one Marine fired a series of "clearing rounds" through the dust and smoke, killing several people, Puckett said.
The Marine who fired the rounds -- Puckett said it was not Wuterich -- had experience clearing numerous houses on a deployment in Fallujah, where Marines had aggressive rules of engagement.
Although it was almost immediately apparent to the Marines that the people dead in the room were men, women and children -- most likely civilians -- they also noticed a back door ajar and believed that insurgents had slipped through to a house nearby, Puckett said. The Marines stealthily moved to the second house, kicking in the door, killing one man inside and then using a frag grenade and more gunfire to clear another room full of people, he said.
Wuterich, not having found the insurgents, told the team to stop and headed back to the platoon leader to reassess the situation, Puckett said, adding that his client knew a number of civilians had just been killed.
Neighborhood residents have offered a different account, saying that the Marines went into the houses shooting and ignored pleas from the civilians to spare them.
Marine Reserve Lt. Jonathan Morgenstein, who served in Anbar province from August 2004 to March 2005, said that the account offered by Wuterich's attorney surprised him a bit.
"When I was in Iraq," Morgenstein said, "the Anbar-wide ROEs [rules of engagement] did not say we had the authority to knock down any door, throw in a hand grenade and kill everyone." Still, he said, if someone in a house in Haditha was shooting at them, the Marines' response may have been within procedure. "If they felt they took fire from that house, then that may be authorized."
A Marine who served near Haditha in November said it was not unusual for Marines to respond to attacks "running and gunning" and that it was standard practice to spray rooms with gunfire when threatened. "It may be a bad tactic, but it works," he said. "It keeps you alive."
After clearing the second house, Puckett said, Wuterich immediately got on the radio and reported the "collateral damage." When the company radio operator asked him to estimate how many civilians had been killed, he said he thought it was about 12 to 15.
McConnell, the company commander, "knew the number was high" and reported it to the battalion executive officer, a major, according to McDermott, his lawyer. McConnell also said that a Marine intelligence team investigated the civilian deaths and reported their findings to senior Marine commanders, the lawyer said.
Wuterich told his attorney that he never reported that the civilians in the houses were killed by the bomb blast and maintains that he never tried to obscure the fact that civilians had been killed in the raids. Whether Wuterich gave false information to his superiors is the focus of one of the military investigations. He said the platoon leader, who was on the scene, never expressed concern about the unit's actions and never tried to hide them.
Marine Corps public affairs officers reported that the civilians had been killed in the bomb blast, a report that Puckett believes was the result of a miscommunication.
After going through the houses, Wuterich moved a small group of Marines to the roof of a nearby building to watch the area, Puckett said. At one point, they saw a man in all-black clothing running from one of the houses they had searched. The Marines killed him, Puckett said.
They then noticed another man in all black scurrying between two houses across the street. When they went to investigate, the Marines found a courtyard filled with women and children and asked where the man was, Puckett said.
When the civilians pointed to a third house, the Marines attempted to enter and found a man with an AK-47 inside, flanked by three other men; the first Marine to enter tried to fire his weapon, but it jammed, Puckett said. The Marines then killed those four men.
The unit stayed at the scene for hours, helping to collect bodies as photos were taken. Wuterich, who remains on duty in California, where he lives with his wife and two young daughters, told Puckett that for months no one questioned his actions.
Staff writers Steve Fainaru in San Diego and Thomas E. Ricks in Washington, and researcher Julie Tate contributed to this report.

2006 The Washington Post Company

[spooky]

good digging, lickmy.

although i personally frown on throwing grenades into rooms full of unidentified people, in that situation, you arent trined to think, you have a set of rules and you follow them. the fact that they did find the shooter with the AK47 is proof of their justifiation, though the rules of engagement can be debated, if you like.

what im curious about is why these locals would allow these guys in their neighborhood to hide in their houses and shoot at americans? is it not known that the americans will fire back? dont they look down their noses at our behavior already, are they surprised? the story given by the civilians wasnt that the shooter forcefully used their homes, pointing to the possibility of their involvement. even if i fancied myself a 'freedom fighter' or a supporter of those, id never set up a shooter from my home and keep the kids inside at the same time. but i suppose the investigation likely wont focus on the so called 'civilians'

.../shrug

interesting reading, none the less, i hope the story is widely published as a warning not to allow people like that 'tard with the ak to roam the streets in your neighborhood.

[lickmyballssuckmy]

I'm pretty sure it's the insurgents that stormed into the houses and crowded everybody into one room because they know our tactics and they know how to manipulate the media.

The difference between this and "throwing grenades into rooms full of unidentified people" is that unknown people were firing at you from inside that house. That makes the house a military target by any definition.

The fact that these guys hide behind innocent men, women, and children is the problem and there is no answer for it. We can't just let them be the only ones shooting.

[perclissigi]

The whole situation is fucked really, since it's either sides ability to stick to any kind of rules, be they rules of engagement or whatever, is questionable, and both sides have media that can't be trusted.

This was is being fought in the media as much as anywhere else.

[lickmyballssuckmy]

I agree. And it's up to us to see things for what they really are. That's the only reason I bother to post any of this here; because I see a lot of people who just believe what they hear in the media and go around repeating it as fact. The truth is out there but it is always the supressed story. Take this one as an example.

The Haditha incident got coverage everywhere when the Marines were thought to be in the wrong. This is simply the other side of the story and my bet is that it gets far less coverage. And I'd bet that a month from now, most media outlets will still be talking about the terrible things Marines did as if this counterpoint story never existed.

[ozdog]

Originally Posted by lickmyballssuckmy

I agree. And it's up to us to see things for what they really are. That's the only reason I bother to post any of this here; because I see a lot of people who just believe what they hear in the media and go around repeating it as fact. The truth is out there but it is always the supressed story. Take this one as an example.

The Haditha incident got coverage everywhere when the Marines were thought to be in the wrong. This is simply the other side of the story and my bet is that it gets far less coverage. And I'd bet that a month from now, most media outlets will still be talking about the terrible things Marines did as if this counterpoint story never existed.

Being in situations like that its hard. You know there are shooters in there, and thats it. Your mission is to grab the shooter or elminate him. As a leader who is in charge of your 18 or 19 year old son, do you want me to knock on the door and ask for the shooter, or do you want me to kick it in. Going in there only knowing that there is someone on the other side ready to kill you, what are your actions. I will throw the granade in, and accomplish my mission, and report what actually happened.


Its a shitty war when your enemy doesnt play by any rules.

[lickmyballssuckmy]

It's unfortunate, but that's the only way to do it if you want to get the job done. All other options lead to losing the firefight/battle/war or a higher number of deaths on your way to a hard victory. It's hard enough as it is without trying to be cute about everything.

If this story is the actual events, I'd say they did exactly what they were trained to do and that's the reason they only lost one Marine.

[perclissigi]

Oh, for sure, but, like you say, that's if it is based on actual events.
We will never know. The problem with it is the fact that it's impossible NOT to form an opinion, therefore impossible to be impartial... if you see what i mean?