Teenage Pregnancy

[ooda]

This is somewhat of a continuation of a conversation that was had on the chat a couple days ago, about a particular topic - teenage pregnancy.

Anyway, I've been reading up on teenage pregnancy for a while, and in the last year and a bit even more so. By reading I mean texts that have been written on the subject, and journal articles related to it. I've also been working at a pregnancy crisis center lately, so this also helps to build my perspective on the matter.

So over time I developed an idea in my mind about a course of action that should be taken to rectify the situation. My opinion is that if a girl ("woman" is not appropriate her) gives birth before the age of consent, then there should be forced adoption of the child.

My view is that if the child is under the age of consent (typically the age of consent is sixteen, with this being the general agreed upon point where an child is sufficiently matured to make serious decisions on their own), then the child will be ill equipped to raise that child, and the risks to that child are substantial, not just medically, but specifically psychologically and socially. Added to this, the risk of the child of the child having a child themselves at a young age is also increased. To put this simply, a pattern is developed that will play a role in the raising of a child.

The parents play a large part in this, as they do in almost every aspect of a child's life. If you do not agree with this, read a basic first-year developmental (usually with a large focus on children) psychology text-book and you'll see that. Even the style of parenting has a large impact on a child (such as authoritative parents, authoritative parents...). This point what counteracted on the chat as being void, that the chances of a fifteen year old getting pregnant are the same for everyone, be they good parents or bad parents, young or old. Specifically, that parents who have a child at the age of thirty have the same risk that their child will get pregnant at a young age as parents who have a child at fifteen.

The main argument that was used was that if you are a child of adolescent parents, then you will use logic to prevent yourself from repeating this mistake. A problem arises with using this as an argument. I do agree that for someone who is psychologically "normal", then they will identify negative issues in their parents or peers, and use them as a basis for rectifying problematic behavior. The problem is that for a child that has been raised "abnormally", in this case by an adolescent parent, then their power of logic, at least in regards to a specific problematic behavior, gets screwed up. They build their logic on what they observe around themselves.

To elaborate on the role that other people have on the developing of an individual (specially an adolescent), I would like to refer to the social learning theory. This theory is now on the specific theory of import in relation of problematic behavior, specifically in relation to addictive behavior, and the effects of it. Mind you, this does not take into account biological issues, but in this case, it is of little import. Basically, the social learning theory states that when an individual performs a particular behavior, they use social peers to form an explicit and implicit opinion about whether a behavior is accepted or not. This uses the idea of operant conditioning, where the prevalence of behavior can be adjusted by the use of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, rewards costs (this refers to the withholding of rewards, so it's kind of like the absence of positive reinforcement, and punishment). Anyway, back to the point. When a child of an adolescent parent observes that their parent had a child at an early age, this acts as positive reinforcement of the behavior, in this case, adolescent pregnancy. This does not mean that the child is doomed to have a child at a young age, but it's does predispose them to that problematic behavior.

What I'm trying to say is that if a child has a child at a young age, then there is some reason for that happening. A child from a good family also is at risk, but that is reduced, and if there is no reason, then it is an exception to the rule. It doesn't necessarily mean that they had to sexually abuse the child or whatnot, but they made some sort of mistake in the child's upbringing that brought forth this problematic behavior.

So back to the original thought, forced adoption would take the neonates away from the adolescent mother. It would not be open adoption, which personally I think does not benefit the child. Sure, it is traumatic on the mother, but she is already screwed up, it's on society to do something to improve the child's life, and prevent it from undertaking behaviors that are similar to that of its parent/s.

A point was then made about having the parents of the adolescent mother aid in raising the child. This does provide some benefit to the child, but these parents are still the parents that raised a child who had a child at an early age. While this could be done, it should only occur with direct and constant input from social services, so as to keep some sort of control over the situation. You have to control the parents as they already raised one child that became pregnant at an early age, so a control has to be in place to prevent it from happening another time, to which there would be increased risk.

[ooda]

Here are some relevant journal articles on the topic at hand, so as to provide a biased free viewpoint on the matter of adolescent pregnancy.


Community Interventions and Effective Prevention

The prevalence of pregnancy, substance abuse, violence, and delinquency among young people is unacceptably high. Interventions for preventing problems in large numbers of youth require more than individual psychological interventions. Successful interventions include the involvement of prevention practitioners and community residents in community-level interventions. The potential of community-level interventions is illustrated by a number of successful studies. However, more inclusive reviews and multisite comparisons show that although there have been successes, many interventions did not demonstrate results. The road to greater success includes prevention science and newer community-centered models of accountability and technical assistance systems for prevention.


Teenaged Pregnancy and Childbearing

This article reviews recent evidence on the changing patterns of childbearing among adolescents and the impact of premature parenthood on the life course of young mothers and their children. Although adolescent mothers experience conspicuous disadvantages in educational attainment and economic well-being, over time the differences between early and later childbearing appear to diminish somewhat, at least for Blacks. The children of teenage mothers, however, are distinctly worse off throughout childhood than the offspring of older childbearers. The reasons for this disparity are explored. The concluding section discusses a range of preventive and ameliorative strategies for reducing the cost of early childbearing. The evidence supports the need for more integration among services and the importance of increasing the availability of services to those in need.


Becoming an Adolescent Father: Precursors and Parenting

Precursors and outcomes of adolescent pregnancy receive considerable research attention; however, most studies deal with adolescent mothers. This study examined whether risk factors that are precursors to adolescent fatherhood would be consistent with the family coercion model (G. R. Patterson, 1976) of the development of antisocial behavior in childhood. Hypotheses were tested in the Oregon Youth Study (OYS) sample of 206 at-risk boys who were first seen at 9 or 10 years of age. At 18–20 years of age, the profiles for the 35 adolescent fathers included more arrests and substance use than the other OYS participants. At around 2 years of age, 40% of the children had no contact with their fathers. The children, compared with a normative control sample, had somewhat greater health risks. The at-risk parents, compared with a control sample, were observed to show higher levels of negative reactions when their children were working on a puzzle task.


Predicting Risk for Pregnancy by Late Adolescence: A Social Contextual Perspective

To evaluate a model of social contextual influences on risk for adolescent pregnancy, 368 target adolescents (52% female, 48% male) and their mothers, fathers, and closest age siblings were assessed 6 times over a 7-year period beginning when the target adolescents were in 7th grade. Two pathways were found to increase risk for involvement in a pregnancy by late adolescence. Middle adolescent risk-taking behavior mediated the influence of early adolescent parental warmth–involvement and deviant-peer affiliations on involvement in a pregnancy by 12th grade. Also, early adolescent academic competence mediated the relationship between parental warmth–involvement and involvement in a pregnancy by 12th grade. Theoretical and practical implications of the results are discussed.


Predictors and Correlates of Continuing Involvement With the Baby's Father Among Adolescent Mothers

Predictors and correlates of a stable ongoing relationship with the baby's father among adolescent mothers were examined. A longitudinal study was conducted of 105 adolescent mothers and their infants over an 18- to 24-month period. Fathers were more likely to stay involved with the adolescent mother if the couple had an intimate and supportive relationship 6 weeks after delivery. They were less likely to stay involved if the young mother experienced a large number of stressful life events during pregnancy and in the first 6 weeks after delivery. Among adolescent mothers who remained in a stable relationship with the baby's biological father, higher scores were obtained on the Home Observation for Measurement of the Environment (B. M. Caldwell & R. H. Bradley, 1984), the young mothers were more likely to report continuous custody of their infants, and the infants' physicians were less likely to report infant injuries, accidents, or investigations of child abuse or neglect.


Nonpsychotic Postpartum Depression Among Adolescent Mothers

This study examined the extent to which childbearing increases vulnerability to clinical depression and depressive symptomatology among primiparous adolescent girls (ages 14 to 18). Childbearing Ss n = 128 were assessed during pregnancy, 6 weeks postpartum, and 1 year postpartum. Matched nonchildbearing Ss n = 114 were assessed at corresponding time points. Six weeks postpartum, 6% of the childbearing adolescents met Research Diagnostic Criteria for major depression and 20% for minor depression. These rates were not significantly different from those found for nonchildbearing Ss (4% major depression, 10% minor depression). However, higher rates of somatic symptoms of depression were found among the childbearing Ss than among the nonchildbearing Ss.

Socioeconomic factors and adolescent pregnancy outcomes: distinctions between neonatal and post-neonatal deaths?

BACKGROUND: Young maternal age has long been associated with higher infant mortality rates, but the role of socioeconomic factors in this association has been controversial. We sought to investigate the relationships between infant mortality (distinguishing neonatal from post-neonatal deaths), socioeconomic status and maternal age in a large, retrospective cohort study. METHODS: We conducted a population-based cohort study using linked birth-death certificate data for Missouri residents during 1997-1999. Infant mortality rates for all singleton births to adolescent women (12-17 years, n = 10,131; 18-19 years, n = 18,954) were compared to those for older women (20-35 years, n = 28,899). Logistic regression was used to estimate adjusted odds ratios (OR) and 95% confidence intervals (CI) for all potential associations. RESULTS: The risk of infant (OR 1.95, CI 1.54-2.48), neonatal (1.69, 1.24-2.31) and post-neonatal mortality (2.47, 1.70-3.59) were significantly higher for younger adolescent (12-17 years) than older (20-34 years) mothers. After adjusting for race, marital status, age-appropriate education level, parity, smoking status, prenatal care utilization, and poverty status (indicated by participation in WIC, food stamps or Medicaid), the risk of post-neonatal mortality (1.73, 1.14-2.64) but not neonatal mortality (1.43, 0.98-2.08) remained significant for younger adolescent mothers. There were no differences in neonatal or post-neonatal mortality risks for older adolescent (18-19 years) mothers. CONCLUSION: Socioeconomic factors may largely explain the increased neonatal mortality risk among younger adolescent mothers but not the increase in post-neonatal mortality risk.


Pregnancy prevention in adolescents.

Although the pregnancy rate in adolescents has declined steadily in the past 10 years, it remains a major public health problem with lasting repercussions for the teenage mothers, their infants and families, and society as a whole. Successful strategies to prevent adolescent pregnancy include community programs to improve social development, responsible sexual behavior education, and improved contraceptive counseling and delivery. Many of these strategies are implemented at the family and community level. The family physician plays a key role by engaging adolescent patients in confidential, open, and nonthreatening discussions of reproductive health, responsible sexual behavior (including condom use to prevent sexually transmitted diseases), and contraceptive use (including the use of emergency contraception). This dialogue should begin before initial sexual activity and continue throughout the adolescent years.


Teenage pregnancy and associated risk behaviors among sexually abused adolescents.

CONTEXT: Previous research suggests a link between adolescent pregnancy and sexual abuse history, but most studies have used clinical samples of females only and single measures of abuse. METHODS: Associations between pregnancy involvement, risk behaviors and sexual abuse were examined in sexually experienced teenagers from the Minnesota Student Surveys of 1992 (N=29,187) and 1998 (N=25,002). Chi-square tests assessed differences in pregnancy involvement and related risk behaviors among four groups of adolescents, categorized by type of abuse experienced: none, incest only, nonfamilial only or both. Odds ratios for pregnancy involvement and risk behaviors, adjusted for grade level and race, were calculated for each gender by using logistic regression analysis. RESULTS: Sexual abuse was reported by 6% of males and 27% of females in 1992, and by 9% and 22% in 1998. Reports of pregnancy involvement were significantly more common among abused adolescents (13-26% of females and 22-61% of males, depending on type of abuse) than among nonabused adolescents (8-10%). Abused adolescents were more likely than others to report risk behaviors, and teenagers reporting both abuse types had the highest odds of pregnancy involvement and risk behaviors. The differential in the odds of pregnancy involvement and most behaviors was larger between nonabused and abused males than between nonabused and abused females. CONCLUSIONS: Teenage pregnancy risk is strongly linked to sexual abuse, especially for males and those who have experienced both incest and nonfamilial abuse. To further reduce the U.S. teenage pregnancy rate, the pregnancy prevention needs of these groups must be adequately addressed.


The association between adverse childhood experiences and adolescent pregnancy, long-term psychosocial consequences, and fetal death.

OBJECTIVES: Few reports address the impact of cumulative exposure to childhood abuse and family dysfunction on teen pregnancy and consequences commonly attributed to teen pregnancy. Therefore, we examined whether adolescent pregnancy increased as types of adverse childhood experiences (ACE score) increased and whether ACEs or adolescent pregnancy was the principal source of elevated risk for long-term psychosocial consequences and fetal death. DESIGN, SETTING, AND PARTICIPANTS: A retrospective cohort study of 9159 women aged > or = 18 years (mean 56 years) who attended a primary care clinic in San Diego, California in 1995-1997. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE: Adolescent pregnancy, psychosocial consequences, and fetal death, compared by ACE score (emotional, physical, or sexual abuse; exposure to domestic violence, substance abusing, mentally ill, or criminal household member; or separated/divorced parent). RESULTS: Sixty-six percent (n = 6015) of women reported > or = 1 ACE. Teen pregnancy occurred in 16%, 21%, 26%, 29%, 32%, 40%, 43%, and 53% of those with 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 to 8 ACEs. As the ACE score rose from zero to 1 to 2, 3 to 4, and > or = 5, odds ratios for each adult consequence increased (family problems: 1.0, 1.5, 2.2, 3.3; financial problems: 1.0, 1.6, 2.3, 2.4; job problems: 1.0, 1.4, 2.3, 2.9; high stress: 1.0, 1.4, 1.9, 2.2; and uncontrollable anger: 1.0, 1.6, 2.8, 4.5, respectively). Adolescent pregnancy was not associated with any of these adult outcomes in the absence of childhood adversity (ACEs: 0). The ACE score was associated with increased fetal death after first pregnancy (odds ratios for 0, 1-2, 3-4, and 5-8 ACEs: 1.0, 1.2, 1.4, and 1.8, respectively); teen pregnancy was not related to fetal death. CONCLUSIONS: The relationship between ACEs and adolescent pregnancy is strong and graded. Moreover, the negative psychosocial sequelae and fetal deaths commonly attributed to adolescent pregnancy seem to result from underlying ACEs rather than adolescent pregnancy per se.


Ducks have ducks unless...

Given the legacy of failure they inherited, Ginsburg and colleagues are to be congratulated for asking a group of urban adolescents what "factors they believe would make the most difference in influencing whether they would have a positive future." Although I and the prevention research literature generally agree with their overall conclusion that the principle of emphasizing the benefits of engaging in behaviors that promote health and well-being over the disadvantages of not doing so has the potential to bring about the broadest range of successful health-related behavioral changes,2–8 their finding that in most cases teen pregnancy did not even make it onto the radar screen as an "impediment to a positive future"1 deserves emphasis and further comment as it is indicative of a crucially important fallacy their conclusion ("Although they also have a keen awareness of the social problems that impact negatively on their opportunities ") eludes to. Any professional who is also a parent does not need scientific evidence (which parenthetically abounds references 8 through 13) to understand that even poor women who postpone childbearing beyond high school graduation reap numerous social and economic benefits for themselves and their children because it is harder to pursue the careers of student and parent simultaneously than in series. Yet we have all cringed to hear a bright-eyed, sexually active, noncontracepting patient say, "But they have day care in medical school don’t they?" or "My auntie says I should have my children when I’m young so they can enjoy me." While armed with only love and the power of positive thinking, Horton was able to hatch a fantastic "elephant-bird," this enigmatic Seussian validation of Lamarkian evolution is not apt to be replicated any time soon. Therefore, unless we also take steps to socialize teenagers like those who participated in this study to the idea that teen pregnancy (and by extension the other socially problematic behaviors endemic in their neighborhoods) represents a serious impediment to achieving the desired middle-class lifestyle their fervent demands for educational and job opportunities belie, the generation of intervention programs their suggestions will undoubtedly spawn may well be added to the growing litany of failures. Changing attitudes is not as simple as providing teens with additional educational and job opportunities; changing what they believe to be normative, defined here as perceiving adolescent childbearing to not be a threat to one’s future, is the ultimate challenge these research finding pose.


Teenage Childbearing and Long-Term Socioeconomic Consequences: A Case Study in Sweden

Context: Whether long-term socioeconomic problems experienced by many teenage mothers are a reflection of preexisting disadvantage or are consequences of teenage motherhood per se remains unclear.
Methods: National data on all women born in Sweden from 1941 to 1970 who were younger than age 30 when they first gave birth (N=888,044) were analyzed. The outcome measures, assessed during adulthood, were employment status, socioeconomic status, educational attainment, single motherhood, family size, receipt of disability pension and dependence on welfare. Multiple logistic regression techniques were used to adjust for maternal birth cohort and for socioeconomic background of the woman's family.
Results: Compared with Swedish women who first gave birth at ages 20-24, those who were teenage mothers had significantly increased odds of each unfavorable socioeconomic outcome in later life, even after the data were adjusted for family socioeconomic situation and maternal birth cohort. For example, teenage motherhood was positively associated with low educational attainment (odds ratios of 1.7-1.9, depending on the specific age during adolescence when the woman gave birth), with single living arrangements (odds ratios, 1.5-2.3), with high parity (odds ratios, 2.6-6.0), with collecting a disability pension (odds ratios, 1.6-1.9) and with welfare dependency (odds ratios, 1.9-2.6). These trends were usually linear, with the highest odds ratios corresponding to women who had had their first child at the youngest age.
Conclusions: A longitudinal analysis of record-linkage data from Sweden supports the view that childbearing during adolescence poses a risk for socioeconomic disadvantage in later life—even for adolescents from relatively comfortable backgrounds and for those who studied beyond elementary school.



And here are some web sites and articles of interest...


Examining Adolescent Pregnancy


Adolescent Childbearing and Educational and Economic Attainment



And a final note, probably the best advice to someone who is pregnant at an early age - try to identify the areas in your life that are responsible for the problematic behavior, even if they seem minor. Do your best to distance yourself from those factors, and remember, therapy can do a lot of good.

[Jenna_f]

Originally Posted by ooda

I was having a conversation in the chat a couple days ago (until I was told by the person I was arguing that the conversation was over, simply at their discretion, and to continue it would be a sign of rudeness on my behalf) about teenage pregnancy.

I'm not reading the rest of the thread, but to respond to this first bit.

You were told the conversation was over because franky the way you were talking was offensive to my intelligence. We discussed this allready as to why the convesation was ended, and you said you saw where I was coming from, so i'm suprised to see this at the start of the thread. Apparently you were lying.
You're terminology was over the top, and I was bored of going in circles with you in the discussion, because I'd try and state a new point, and you'd reply with the same assumption, not stating a new point, for the sake of the fact that I was in the chat, as was everyone else, to have fun, I said we should stop. Not to mention there was a pregnant teenager in the chat at the time, and I'm sure you were making no one feel comfortable. It was perfectly withen my rights to stop the conversation, and though you were annoyed at first, you claimed that you agreed in the end, and that there were no hard feelings, yet you have to have this little part at the start of this thread, which was completly pointless, and only served to say you were lying when you said no hard feelings.

I was willing to discuss this further in an intelligent and civil manner, but that part at the start of the thread changed my mind, I don't want to bother with someone who is going to say it's over, apolagize, say no hard feelings, and then come whine about it on the forums later.


Editing to clarify my point, I don't mind you posting the topic for debate on the forum, it's just the stupid dig at the start, when you had allready apolagized and said no hard feelings, etc.

Edit again: Ahggg! I tried to read your post anyway, and I got very little far in, when I said forced abortion, that was a typo, I ment to say forced adoption, and if you felt like your words were being twisted in the chat last night, then you should have said it then, instead of pretending to be all okay with it and apparently fake apolagizing, fuck. I don't want to read the rest of the post, but I'm wondering how many more bullshit digs there are in here.

I'm not going to start the debate again, you've prooved you aren't mature enough for that aparently, but I am wondering what you have to say to what I stated in this post.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

I'm not reading the rest of the thread, but to respond to this first bit.

You were told the conversation was over because franky the way you were talking was offensive to my intelligence. We discussed this allready as to why the convesation was ended, and you said you saw where I was coming from, so i'm suprised to see this at the start of the thread. Apparently you were lying.
You're terminology was over the top, and I was bored of going in circles with you in the discussion, because I'd try and state a new point, and you'd reply with the same assumption, not stating a new point, for the sake of the fact that I was in the chat, as was everyone else, to have fun, I said we should stop. Not to mention there was a pregnant teenager in the chat at the time, and I'm sure you were making no one feel comfortable. It was perfectly withen my rights to stop the conversation, and though you were annoyed at first, you claimed that you agreed in the end, and that there were no hard feelings, yet you have to have this little part at the start of this thread, which was completly pointless, and only served to say you were lying when you said no hard feelings.

I was willing to discuss this further in an intelligent and civil manner, but that part at the start of the thread changed my mind, I don't want to bother with someone who is going to say it's over, apolagize, say no hard feelings, and then come whine about it on the forums later.


Editing to clarify my point, I don't mind you posting the topic for debate on the forum, it's just the stupid dig at the start, when you had allready apolagized and said no hard feelings, etc.

Edit again: Ahggg! I tried to read your post anyway, and I got very little far in, when I said forced abortion, that was a typo, I ment to say forced adoption, and if you felt like your words were being twisted in the chat last night, then you should have said it then, instead of pretending to be all okay with it and apparently fake apolagizing, fuck. I don't want to read the rest of the post, but I'm wondering how many more bullshit digs there are in here.

You said it more than once, and to more than one issue, and if you notice, I didn't refer to you specifically in the above post. I'm talking about the issue her, not you. Things that you said in the chat are being used here just to clarify things. Even though it may seem like it to you, this is in no way a personal attack, but a clarification of points.

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

I'm not going to start the debate again, you've prooved you aren't mature enough for that aparently, but I am wondering what you have to say to what I stated in this post.

You made your point. Never did I say this topic was specifically made for you, but rather just as a way of explaining my thoughts on the matter at hand. That's why I went and made an effort to find relevant evidence to put forward a cohesive argument.

And a conversation is a two-directioned thing, so that doesn't mean that just one person can make decisions pertaining to the whole thing. In addition, you say I was saying the same things again and again, where as your point during the whole thing was to use the same argument for every, specifically that no one is to blame for anything.

So your saying I should stop what I'm saying depending on who is listening? I know who you are talking about, and they were by no means required to stay there. This is like saying I can't talk about the Lebanese conflict if say someone who is of Lebanese ethnicity is listening, or that I can't talk about possible causes that someone is gay if a gay is around?

I'm not saying there are hard feelings towards you, just some of the things I wanted to say. It is more appropriate that I say what I'm thinking in the forum rather than the chat, because as you say, some things can make people uncomfortable, so here they can choose not to read it.

Okay, and I do admit that I did let personal feelings into the original post. Read the post below it where there are journal articles. That I made sure (except for the part at the very bottom) to be unbiased.

A final point. You saying you find your intelligence insulted is very insulting to me, as more than one time during that conversation I found my intelligence insulted, especially now with your "greater-than-thou" attitude towards the whole thing.

[Jenna_f]

Originally Posted by ooda

You said it more than once, and to more than one issue, and if you notice, I didn't refer to you specifically in the above post. I'm talking about the issue her, not you. Things that you said in the chat are being used here just to clarify things. Even though it may seem like it to you, this is in no way a personal attack, but a clarification of points.

It doesn't matter if this post is for me, it is 2 faced and stupid to apolagize for your behavior in the chat, then come on here and defend your behavior. If you were going to include that dumb stuff at the start of your first post, then you never should have apolagized on the chat last night. period.


And I did not say on the chat that you couldn't keep ranting about it on the chat, I simply said I had given up on the conversation because I found your terminology offensive. And that you may aswell stop talking about it too, because I was the only one who was talking about it with you. A conversation is a two sided thing, and if one person is offended, it is there right to cease participating, a right I invoked.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

It doesn't matter if this post is for me, it is 2 faced and stupid to apolagize for your behavior in the chat, then come on here and defend your behavior. If you were going to include that dumb stuff at the start of your first post, then you never should have apolagized on the chat last night. period.

It would have been two faced if I had came and explicitly insulted you. An apology does not mean that everything I said is now irrelevant, and cannot be talked of at a later point. To be honest, my posts was/is a bit too personalized, and has been amended. My main thing is that I wanted to talk about something, but some feelings leaked out into the argument, which should not occur in an argument.

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

And I did not say on the chat that you couldn't keep ranting about it on the chat, I simply said I had given up on the conversation because I found your terminology offensive. And that you may aswell stop talking about it too, because I was the only one who was talking about it with you. A conversation is a two sided thing, and if one person is offended, it is there right to cease participating, a right I invoked.

Using that same logic, there is no point to write an editorial or whatnot that continues on previous ideas or conversations, because you are not talking to a particular individual anymore. To use the analogy of a seed - once a seed is planted, it will sprout. Same as a particular idea, in this case teenage pregnancy. And even in the above paragraph you said that you ended the conversation, but that did not mean my rant had to end, but because I was not talking to anyone, I should not continue with it. Isn't the whole thing about free-speach that I can say what I want, as long as it's substantiated with evidence?

And I still stand by my comment that teenage pregnancy is a "rape on society". Just because you took it out of context does not make the whole conversation null and void. I was not using rape in the way that it's like forcing yourself on another, but more in the statutory rape sense, that under the age of consent, sexual activity of any kind is considered rape. I guess a more appropriate thing to say would have been that it's like "statuary rape on society, and the infant, in that their rights have been withheld due to having a parent who has not finished developing as an individual, physiologically and psychologically, to an adequate level".

[Jenna_f]

Ooda, I never said the whole conversation was null and void. All i said in the forums here today was the following:

A) I don't wish to contenue the debate personally anymore, you can contenue freely.
B) You should not apolagize for your behavior, then defend your behavior. That was my main point posting here, I didn't say you can't start this thread up, all I'm trying to say is this, and if you're going to reply to me here, please reply to the followings statement:

Why did you apolagize for contenuing the conversation past when anyone else wanted too, and why did you apolagize for your termonology and behavior, if you did not feel sorry for either of these things.

I have never said this thread should not be here, I have only said the stupid part about me wanting to stop the conversation, your edits to the above posts seemed to fix the only issues I had with it. My problem was with apolagizing for your behaviour, when you apolagized for your behaviour, I was not holding that as an apolagy for your theories, and therefor ofcourse I would be okay with this thread, but to basically take back your apolagy and any meaningfull discussion I thought we had last night with your comments about the previous night at the start of the post was just wrong to do. As you have edited your post to ammend these issues, I have no further problems.
Last night you recognized your behavior as rude, and then you proceded to make that post and act like I was the rude one, despite your own conceding last night, that was my only problem.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

Ooda, I never said the whole conversation was null and void.

For me you saying that I lacked maturity made it seem to me that you were saying because of that lack of maturity, I am not able to form an argument of any merit, and hence, it's a void argument.

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

All i said in the forums here today was the following:

A) I don't wish to contenue the debate personally anymore, you can contenue freely.

Understood, and understandable.

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

B) You should not apolagize for your behavior, then defend your behavior. That was my main point posting here, I didn't say you can't start this thread up, all I'm trying to say is this, and if you're going to reply to me here, please reply to the followings statement:

Why did you apolagize for contenuing the conversation past when anyone else wanted too, and why did you apolagize for your termonology and behavior, if you did not feel sorry for either of these things.

The main thing I was apologizing for the terminology, it was that I'm sorry if somethings were taken out of context, and were construed as being insulting and inappropriate. I had an idea in my head about what the statement was regarding, like what I said in my previous post. The problem is that the word I used was loaded with bad connotations.

Originally Posted by Jenna_f

I have never said this thread should not be here, I have only said the stupid part about me wanting to stop the conversation, your edits to the above posts seemed to fix the only issues I had with it. My problem was with apolagizing for your behaviour, when you apolagized for your behaviour, I was not holding that as an apolagy for your theories, and therefor ofcourse I would be okay with this thread, but to basically take back your apolagy and any meaningfull discussion I thought we had last night with your comments about the previous night at the start of the post was just wrong to do. As you have edited your post to ammend these issues, I have no further problems.

It wasn't so much that I was trying to stop the conversation, but rather you were giving me something to "chew on", so that I could build upon the argument. I guess in retrospect, I appreciate that as it provided me with different scenarios for me to think about. That's half the trouble with having a decent debate - finding a good opponent, and I'll give you credit for the chat - you were great, and extra points for not backing down.

I wasn't taking back the apology from the previous night, but I was commenting about the issues that were raised. The problem is that I related them back to you to too large a degree, which diffused the argument somewhat.

And with that, I'll comment on this stuff, but like you said, I'll declare a cease fire to the whole thing. The main problem is that I had some flaring emotions from that chat, and still wanted some way to express them. The apology I gave you was well-intentioned, though the problem was I have a tendency of at many times being well-intentioned, but not really the kind of person that is the best at the whole "forgive and forget".

[BlueCC]

you're both crazy

[ooda]

Originally Posted by BlueCC

you're both crazy

Grr. It kills me when someone can sum everything up with three words

/wink