Teenage Pregnancy

[Mastermind]

Okay. This is a very interesting topic.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by Patrice

Meh. Besides the whole big brother feel of it, the whole forced adoption would never serve as a solution but merely an out. I can go ahead and get knocked up because in 9 months it will be a baby the govt has to deal with.

My main problem is with your use of normal vs. abnormal. I was raised by exceptionally young parents and never for a moment felt nor was I taught that having a baby young was acceptable or par for the course and my upbringing was far from normal.

My mom didn't get knocked up because she was from a poor drug addled family and she was hustlin to get by and my dad was a street saavy pimp/player. I was the product of two unsupervised upper middle class latchkey kids doing the dirty at a friends before curfew.

Growing up most of my friends had divorced parents and thier dad's were dudes they sort of remembered. I was lucky enough to have a situation where they weren't together but co-parenting was in place. My dad lived 5 minutes away and I saw him daily.

Not to paint it as an ideal template of teen parenting gone right. I think of my grandma having been a better mom than my actual mom because she did do a large chunk of raising me until my mom graduated from high school. My dad did alot of the little shit (school trips, girl scouts all that bonding shit) while she was in college and grad school.

Now at 27 I realize that the problem was that around 14 we hit a point where my mom and I were in a position where I was in a place to do all the shit she wanted to do at my age minus a kid and she resented me for it. with only 13 year age difference we are damn near part of the same generation. I couldn't imagine right now worrying if my 14 year old was out doing who knows what and that was her lot at my age. She and I haven't talked in two years because honestly she isn't a healthy person for me to be around because of the resentment (on both our parts at this point).

That coupled with the fact that my dad got remarried and had a kid at what now works out as a normal age to have a family (basically giving him a do over) is a source of weirdness. But with him I think with have both recognized it and we work on it. He stopped calling my sister the nickname he used to call me as a kid (fuck it I'm 27 but I didn't like it it was my name) and I know he was doing it because he uses nicknames when real names escape him in a pinch most of the time. It was still an issue for me.Odd to have issues with a kid your 16 years older than but siblings are siblings.

Every teen knocked up isn't always a teen gone wrong so the solution can't be static. Sex Ed being more realistic is definitely a start. Including sex ed for the parents. My grandparents didn't even fathom that sex could truly happen with teens until my mom turned up pregnant.



Don't tease the democrats. They always mean well.

First the "abnormal" and "normal" thing. I've started to use abnormal to refer to anything that is even slightly away from the norm. I guess a problem in "normal speak" is that there are a lot of bad connotations surrounding the word "abnormal", so what I was saying may have seemed more harsh than actually intentioned.

Different parenting styles can have a big impact on how a child is raised. There are four main parenting styles that have been identified:

- Permissive parents: nontraditional parents, and let the child develop themselves instead of imposing significant structure upon them.

- Authoritarian parents: highly demanding parents, and ones who are no very responsive to their child, in a way like the parent will say "jump", and the child will not ask "how high?", but just be expected to jump. I guess you could classify them as being "hard-ass" parents.

- Authoritative parents: parents who control their child, but are also responsive to their child's needs. Kind of like a mixture of the above two, and probably the best parenting style to take with a child.

- Uninvolved parents: the parents have children, but you wouldn't think it by the way they treat them. This is the opposite of the above parenting style, as it forgoes structure and responsiveness to the child. In extreme cases, this could manifest itself as neglect, mainly because the child is like a non-factor to the parent.

For yourself Patrice, and I'm making some assumptions here, but I'm guessing that your parent's parents were somewhat authoritarian, partly because of the curfew, but that the harsh parenting would only be most effective when they were supervised by said parent, as when they were not supervised, they could partake in all the activities that they had been told not to do. This style of parenting only works with some children, as you can compare the whole thing to a rubber band. Even with the same person twisting many different rubber bands with the same strength, some will break under the pressure, and some will not. I'm not saying that your parents explicitly went out and rebelled, but when they got a chance to have some fun, they had it. The problem with the fun was that as result of it something happened that they weren't prepared for (though in this case I think it's somewhat of a miracle, as we wouldn't have this vivacious woman we've grown to love).

However the thing is, being a good parent takes a few things - good intentions, having developed enough personally to perform said good intentions, and putting forward the effort to perform them. I give your parents credit that even though they were not able to raise a child, gave you off to someone who was better adept at raising you, and saw that they had to first finish growing themselves. Normally I'm not a fan of a grandmother raising a child, though with age comes added awareness, and as she had already raised children, she already had a subset of child rearing skills at the ready. Added to that, I'm one of those people that thinks that while divorce isn't good, it's better to have the parents separate so as to avoid long periods of fighting that would ensue. Better to have no marriage than a farce marriage that is only present for as long as it takes to raise the child.

Mind you, while your Mom may have grown better in time, there is also the chance that in time she could have better realized that she may not be prepared to raise a child at any age, and hence be less inclined so as to take risk taking behavior. I actually agree that it's better for you to stay away from your mother, as I don't really believe that people necessarily have to take significant actions to bring someone back into the fray, especially if what you could potentially gain from the whole thing does not equal or exceed what you put into the whole endeavor. I mean, it's understood that you most likely will feel some sort of guilt at times, but it's better than hounded your Mom that she she act like a real Mom, and have her eventually tell you to "fuck off". Even though I was never a fan of the phrase, the old adage "let bygones be bygones" seems appropriate here.

I guess a good thing with your Dad's parenting style is that even though it was built on a somewhat shaky foundation, he at least seems to be building upon everything, and becoming a better father.

And finally, this whole idea is a hypothetical. I get that the chances of this ever becoming an enforceable rule is pretty much non-existant, though that's the good thing about forums like this, that you have put forward ideas that may be scoffed at in the real word.

Forced adoption will never become a reality, but like you said Patrice, better sex education should be undertaken. Kind of taking some things from my original idea, there are a few things I'd like to see...

- still give the biological explanation for how a child is formed, but coupled with this, also have someone who can talk "street" to the kids, so that they aren't just bombarded with information that they can barely comprehend.

- at the age of fourteen, give each female adolescent information about the pill and other contraceptive devices, and some way that the child can obtain it with having to have the parent give their permission. In a lot of cases, girls are scared to get the pill, or at the very least go to planned parenthood because they are scared of their parents. Maybe forced adoption may be inappropriate, but at least having easier access to contraceptive devices would help slow things down.

- have school nurses better trained in giving advice to students related to sex, and give them the power to distribute condoms. This point is fraught with political issues, but I don't think giving a child a condom significantly raises the chances that they will have sex. If anything, not giving them a condom significantly raises the probability of engaging in unsafe sexual behavior.

- when they teach sex education, don't just focus on regular sex. Kids are having anal sex, oral sex and the like because they know they can't get the other person pregnant. The problem is that there are still risks with these behaviors (specifically STD's, especially for anal sex, as it has the highest risk of any "opening", including the vagina).

- don't mix religion into the education, as it just fucks everything up. This issue also I could write a whole essay on.

- increase the funding of planned parenthood, especially in the publicity department. Far too many kids are not properly aware of all they have available to them.

- fine any pharmacist who refuses to distribute contraceptive devices, in particular, the pill. I'm not talking about things like RU-486 which induce abortions, but just things that prevent pregnancy. Same as the morning after pill. For me refusing to supply these is tantamount to refusing to sell a diabetic insulin.

- following up on the morning after pill, step up the effort and allow and encourage males to keep a few of them handy so that the entire onus isn't on the female. Subsidize condom manufacturers and include the morning after pill with packs of condoms.

- if a person has a child at an early age, specifically under the age of consent, then heavily involve social services in the raising of the child, and have mandatory parenting classes that the parent must attend until the individual is deemed to be a satisfactory parent.

- and finally, make therapy more readily available. An effort should be made to at least correct the foundations that cause the problem, rather than just the resultant effects.


And with that, I am done.

[ooda]

God damn it spooky, now I know how you feel when you get fired up about a particular issue.

[mali]

a) i dont know how social services are down under, but it gets a pretty bad report card here in the states. perhaps the bad press is the exception to the rule.. /shrug

b) it sounds like this is all coming from someone who doesn't have kids, has taken a few child psych classes, and is having an intellectual moment. all situations are so damn different when it comes to rearing a child, and family set-ups/situations. and honestly, you can't possibly get the idea until you have one of your own.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by mali

a) i dont know how social services are down under, but it gets a pretty bad report card here in the states. perhaps the bad press is the exception to the rule.. /shrug

b) it sounds like this is all coming from someone who doesn't have kids, has taken a few child psych classes, and is having an intellectual moment. all situations are so damn different when it comes to rearing a child, and family set-ups/situations. and honestly, you can't possibly get the idea until you have one of your own.

It comes from being surrounded by underage mothers and seeing that something is wrong with the whole situation.

And I'm not saying social services are the do all the end all, but I'd say they are more likely better than nothing, and of course the bad press gets more attention. What's likely to get more attention in the news, that someone who works in social services neglected a child or missed something that led to something catastrophic happening, or that someone from social services taught a parent on how to improve their life, and now they are rid of their problems. Maybe if that kid gets into Harvard the thing about social services will get a passing mention, but other than that, nothing.

Do I have to commit suicide to form an opinion about suicide?

[ooda]

Originally Posted by ooda

Do I have to commit suicide to form an opinion about suicide?

Ten points to the first person who suggest I should try it. Lickmy, I'm looking at you.

[lickmyballssuckmy]

The only comments I have here are this:

a. As long as each state makes the decision for themselves, then consitutionality won't be an issue. I usually want the federal government to shut up and go away. On this issue, I want them to stay out of states business.

2. When my kids were going through school I withheld them from sex ed because I reviewed the curriculum and was appalled at how early some topics were taught. I'm not against the idea of education. I do think it's the parents job but I know that a lot of parents blow as parents. But, I couldn't see any point in teaching a 3rd grader about anal sex and starting the homo indoctrination stuff in 4th grade. I'm not sure when or if I would teach kids about that if I was writing the curriculum but that just seemed way too early. I think a lot of kids had their childhood innocence robbed by the programs where I lived at the time.

d. I do have a problem with the fact that my kids can get a condom in school. ooda is probably correct that giving them the condom doesn't increase or decrease the chance that something is going to happen, but I do think it says to the child, "Here. We give up. We think you are an animal that can't control yourself instead of a responsible human that can make your own choices." I truly believe that if you treat people as if you expect the best from them, they will play the part. I've seen it too many times to think otherwise. I say treat them like an adult on this adult issue. If you are going to make the decision to do this, then go find your own condoms. When you come to us and we give it to you, it's like saying, "Go ahead." with saying it out loud.

17. I know that if condoms are harder to get a hold of, there will be more teen pregnancies. So, back during whatever sex education goes on, instead of teaching them all the different things they can do, teach them how to be responsible and how not to fuck up their life, the other person's life, the child's life, the lives of both families, etc. Go heavily into, "Choices you make affect other people and here are some examples." Tread lightly when it comes to, "We know you can't control yourself so instead of fucking, here's how to give a blowjob or fuck a girl in the ass."

[blue eyes]

Wow, disappear for a few days and Societal problems get solved.

Just a couple of things:

couple hundred years ago 13 year old girls were having babies and noone batted an eye. Society changed, hormones didn't. Big Brother will never be able to change that. Giving kids a little more education than 'just say no' will help.... some.

Second. kids who are adopted deal with their own issues of identity and feelings of abandonment. ( Now before I get lambasted, I know that most adopted kids out there are doing well).

If anything gets mandated I'd like to see parenting classes.. as early as middle school. (and mental health covered at equitable levels, social workers paid their worth, crime free cities, renewable power, honest politicians...ah, to dream...)

[ooda]

Originally Posted by lickmyballssuckmy

The only comments I have here are this:

a. As long as each state makes the decision for themselves, then consitutionality won't be an issue. I usually want the federal government to shut up and go away. On this issue, I want them to stay out of states business.

Assuming it would get to this point, for me I think a state-by-state referendum would be the most appropriate, with in this case seventy-five percent being the needed majority. This is one of those cases when you really want the whole state having a say, instead of just those in power. Coupled with that, it would be nice to have everyone (within reason) vote, instead of those that just show up.

Originally Posted by lickmyballssuckmy

2. When my kids were going through school I withheld them from sex ed because I reviewed the curriculum and was appalled at how early some topics were taught. I'm not against the idea of education. I do think it's the parents job but I know that a lot of parents blow as parents. But, I couldn't see any point in teaching a 3rd grader about anal sex and starting the homo indoctrination stuff in 4th grade. I'm not sure when or if I would teach kids about that if I was writing the curriculum but that just seemed way too early. I think a lot of kids had their childhood innocence robbed by the programs where I lived at the time.

The big issue is finding the balance between when the child can adequately comprehend what is being said, but a bit before it becomes an issue. Parents being given unbiased (namely non-religious) information regarding the issue of sex and telling their children by themselves would be a good start.

Originally Posted by lickmyballssuckmy

d. I do have a problem with the fact that my kids can get a condom in school. ooda is probably correct that giving them the condom doesn't increase or decrease the chance that something is going to happen, but I do think it says to the child, "Here. We give up. We think you are an animal that can't control yourself instead of a responsible human that can make your own choices." I truly believe that if you treat people as if you expect the best from them, they will play the part. I've seen it too many times to think otherwise. I say treat them like an adult on this adult issue. If you are going to make the decision to do this, then go find your own condoms. When you come to us and we give it to you, it's like saying, "Go ahead." with saying it out loud.

17. I know that if condoms are harder to get a hold of, there will be more teen pregnancies. So, back during whatever sex education goes on, instead of teaching them all the different things they can do, teach them how to be responsible and how not to fuck up their life, the other person's life, the child's life, the lives of both families, etc. Go heavily into, "Choices you make affect other people and here are some examples." Tread lightly when it comes to, "We know you can't control yourself so instead of fucking, here's how to give a blowjob or fuck a girl in the ass."

The whole condom issue is a huge political minefield. If we give them condoms, then in a way it's like saying what you said - "we know you can't keep your dork in your pants, so let's at least try to stop you from knocking someone up", but then if we don't give any, it's like we're not trying to control it. And back again, if we give condoms, it's like giving unsaid permission to have sex, but if we don't give them, then it's like we're being naive.

I honestly have no strong opinion about the condom issue. There are too many strong points for each side.

[ooda]

Originally Posted by blue eyes

Wow, disappear for a few days and Societal problems get solved.

Just a couple of things:

couple hundred years ago 13 year old girls were having babies and noone batted an eye. Society changed, hormones didn't. Big Brother will never be able to change that. Giving kids a little more education than 'just say no' will help.... some.

Big Brother can't change it, but we can try to control the resultant effects of said hormones. But yeah, informing kids and changing societal norms is a start.

Originally Posted by blue eyes

Second. kids who are adopted deal with their own issues of identity and feelings of abandonment. ( Now before I get lambasted, I know that most adopted kids out there are doing well).

Less so than if it's at a very early age, and if they do not know they are being raised by their non-biological parents. This is one reason why I don't like open-adoptions.

Originally Posted by blue eyes

If anything gets mandated I'd like to see parenting classes.. as early as middle school. (and mental health covered at equitable levels, social workers paid their worth, crime free cities, renewable power, honest politicians...ah, to dream...)

Sigh, I've got the problem that I sometimes get to idealistic with my thinking. The idea of forced adoption would work well if everything else was working well, but then we wouldn't need forced adoption...