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Old 01-16-2012, 10:19 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Either you are trying to say that Israel is without blame, or you are trying to excuse Israel's crimes because someone else in the world did them once, and both are reprehensible.

By the way, how can anybody be surprised that a nation that was founded on the idea that a made-up religious text is a land deed has a problem with religious extremism?
Okay, when I started this thread it wasn't my intention to start up some should Israel exist bullshit, but Bob seems to want to go there, so what's your solution Bob? Pack up all the Israeli's and move them.. well, I don't know, what's good for you Bob, next door to you?

Tell you what, soon as you move back to wherever your ancestors came from oh let's say 200 or 300 years ago, and give whatever lands and property back to whomever may have lived where you're at now way back then, we can get started on how you feel about Israel.

Asshole

Try living in today. Israel exists, it's not going anywhere, deal with it.

And about their religion? Pretty much every religion is a pack of lies a bunch of fools and con artists agreed to endorse a long time ago and we're all still dealing with their stupid bullshit. Trade Hasid with Taliban or Baptist, there's not really much difference.
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:25 PM   #12 (permalink)
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putting all those hot army women
omg, hottest pictorial ever. #22 of 60 broke my heart.

and listen Daemonil, Bob shared his thoughts and you extrapolated all kinds of nonsense from that. Settle down.
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:41 PM   #13 (permalink)
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It's all because of the expansive, never-ending, vast amount of brown in the landscape.
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Old 01-16-2012, 06:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Either you are trying to say that Israel is without blame, or you are trying to excuse Israel's crimes because someone else in the world did them once, and both are reprehensible.

By the way, how can anybody be surprised that a nation that was founded on the idea that a made-up religious text is a land deed has a problem with religious extremism?
No. I'm asking what nation you think is good. How did you misread what I said?

I just want to know what constitutes your definition of good with regard to nationhood. You said "nothing about that nation has ever been good", but I'd like to know what that means relative to your opinion of other nations.

I don't think teetotalers are good judges of scotch, and I don't think folks with arbitrary or wholly negative views on nationalism and its merits (or lack thereof) are good judges in this arena.

Therefore, I'd like to know what "nothing about that nation has ever been good" means. That requires clarification.

I'm not saying what you ascribe to me in your first paragraph. I'd just like you to clarify what you mean.
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:50 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Robert Fisk: Why do they hate the West so much, we will ask

So once again, Israel has opened the gates of hell to the Palestinians. Forty civilian refugees dead in a United Nations school, three more in another. Not bad for a night's work in Gaza by the army that believes in "purity of arms". But why should we be surprised?

Have we forgotten the 17,500 dead – almost all civilians, most of them children and women – in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon; the 1,700 Palestinian civilian dead in the Sabra-Chatila massacre; the 1996 Qana massacre of 106 Lebanese civilian refugees, more than half of them children, at a UN base; the massacre of the Marwahin refugees who were ordered from their homes by the Israelis in 2006 then slaughtered by an Israeli helicopter crew; the 1,000 dead of that same 2006 bombardment and Lebanese invasion, almost all of them civilians?

What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties. "Israel makes every possible effort to avoid civilian casualties," yet another Israeli ambassador said only hours before the Gaza massacre. And every president and prime minister who repeated this mendacity as an excuse to avoid a ceasefire has the blood of last night's butchery on their hands. Had George Bush had the courage to demand an immediate ceasefire 48 hours earlier, those 40 civilians, the old and the women and children, would be alive.

What happened was not just shameful. It was a disgrace. Would war crime be too strong a description? For that is what we would call this atrocity if it had been committed by Hamas. So a war crime, I'm afraid, it was. After covering so many mass murders by the armies of the Middle East – by Syrian troops, by Iraqi troops, by Iranian troops, by Israeli troops – I suppose cynicism should be my reaction. But Israel claims it is fighting our war against "international terror". The Israelis claim they are fighting in Gaza for us, for our Western ideals, for our security, for our safety, by our standards. And so we are also complicit in the savagery now being visited upon Gaza.

I've reported the excuses the Israeli army has served up in the past for these outrages. Since they may well be reheated in the coming hours, here are some of them: that the Palestinians killed their own refugees, that the Palestinians dug up bodies from cemeteries and planted them in the ruins, that ultimately the Palestinians are to blame because they supported an armed faction, or because armed Palestinians deliberately used the innocent refugees as cover.

The Sabra and Chatila massacre was committed by Israel's right-wing Lebanese Phalangist allies while Israeli troops, as Israel's own commission of inquiry revealed, watched for 48 hours and did nothing. When Israel was blamed, Menachem Begin's government accused the world of a blood libel. After Israeli artillery had fired shells into the UN base at Qana in 1996, the Israelis claimed that Hizbollah gunmen were also sheltering in the base. It was a lie. The more than 1,000 dead of 2006 – a war started when Hizbollah captured two Israeli soldiers on the border – were simply dismissed as the responsibility of the Hizbollah. Israel claimed the bodies of children killed in a second Qana massacre may have been taken from a graveyard. It was another lie. The Marwahin massacre was never excused. The people of the village were ordered to flee, obeyed Israeli orders and were then attacked by an Israeli gunship. The refugees took their children and stood them around the truck in which they were travelling so that Israeli pilots would see they were innocents. Then the Israeli helicopter mowed them down at close range. Only two survived, by playing dead. Israel didn't even apologise.

Twelve years earlier, another Israeli helicopter attacked an ambulance carrying civilians from a neighbouring village – again after they were ordered to leave by Israel – and killed three children and two women. The Israelis claimed that a Hizbollah fighter was in the ambulance. It was untrue. I covered all these atrocities, I investigated them all, talked to the survivors. So did a number of my colleagues. Our fate, of course, was that most slanderous of libels: we were accused of being anti-Semitic.


And I write the following without the slightest doubt: we'll hear all these scandalous fabrications again. We'll have the Hamas-to-blame lie – heaven knows, there is enough to blame them for without adding this crime – and we may well have the bodies-from-the-cemetery lie and we'll almost certainly have the Hamas-was-in-the-UN-school lie and we will very definitely have the anti-Semitism lie. And our leaders will huff and puff and remind the world that Hamas originally broke the ceasefire. It didn't. Israel broke it, first on 4 November when its bombardment killed six Palestinians in Gaza and again on 17 November when another bombardment killed four more Palestinians.

Yes, Israelis deserve security. Twenty Israelis dead in 10 years around Gaza is a grim figure indeed. But 600 Palestinians dead in just over a week, thousands over the years since 1948 – when the Israeli massacre at Deir Yassin helped to kick-start the flight of Palestinians from that part of Palestine that was to become Israel – is on a quite different scale. This recalls not a normal Middle East bloodletting but an atrocity on the level of the Balkan wars of the 1990s. And of course, when an Arab bestirs himself with unrestrained fury and takes out his incendiary, blind anger on the West, we will say it has nothing to do with us. Why do they hate us, we will ask? But let us not say we do not know the answer.

Last edited by GossipTGirl; 01-26-2012 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 01-16-2012, 09:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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On January 3 2009, during ”Operation Cast Lead,” some 1400 Palestinians were killed including 352 children.

Israeli soldiers tell Channel 4 News they were ordered to “cleanse” Palestinian neighbourhoods, as filmmaker Nurit Kedar says “the atmosphere was that nobody should talk about this war”.

This incident — among many others — was brought to the world’s attention by the UN’s fact finding mission, which concluded that the attack was a deliberate targeting of civilians


...Okay, I'm done now.
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Old 01-16-2012, 11:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GossipTGirl View Post


On January 3 2009, during ”Operation Cast Lead,” some 1400 Palestinians were killed including 352 children.

Israeli soldiers tell Channel 4 News they were ordered to “cleanse” Palestinian neighbourhoods, as filmmaker Nurit Kedar says “the atmosphere was that nobody should talk about this war”.

This incident — among many others — was brought to the world’s attention by the UN’s fact finding mission, which concluded that the attack was a deliberate targeting of civilians


...Okay, I'm done now.
The lead author of said report recanted those findings, and acknowledged significant failings in the collection and interpretation of evidence with regard to the conflict.

Also, Robert Fisk is cozy with Hezbollah, a recognized terrorist group.

It's worth pointing those two things out.
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Old 01-20-2012, 07:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cretaceous Bob View Post
Either you are trying to say that Israel is without blame, or you are trying to excuse Israel's crimes because someone else in the world did them once, and both are reprehensible.

By the way, how can anybody be surprised that a nation that was founded on the idea that a made-up religious text is a land deed has a problem with religious extremism?
That's not at all what he said Bobby, and I'm pretty sure you know it. I'm wondering though, if you make lists of all crimes committed in the US and blame them on the US instead of the actual individuals responsible?
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Old 01-26-2012, 09:09 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daemonik View Post
Okay, when I started this thread it wasn't my intention to start up some should Israel exist bullshit, but Bob seems to want to go there, so what's your solution Bob? Pack up all the Israeli's and move them.. well, I don't know, what's good for you Bob, next door to you?

Tell you what, soon as you move back to wherever your ancestors came from oh let's say 200 or 300 years ago, and give whatever lands and property back to whomever may have lived where you're at now way back then, we can get started on how you feel about Israel.

Asshole

Try living in today. Israel exists, it's not going anywhere, deal with it.
Is that what justifies Israel? That is all you have? The morality of any action is irrelevant if it is 1) successful, and 2) sustained long enough?

Do you think the issue is that I'm hating on people who don't believe what their parents believed and don't endorse what their parents did, and I want to treat them as if they were their parents? Is that what's going on here?
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The lead author of said report recanted those findings, and acknowledged significant failings in the collection and interpretation of evidence with regard to the conflict.

Also, Robert Fisk is cozy with Hezbollah, a recognized terrorist group.

It's worth pointing those two things out.
Israel is, rather than just being cozy with, the outgrowth and direct result of a recognized terrorist group. If single statements suffice to discredit.
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And about their religion? Pretty much every religion is a pack of lies a bunch of fools and con artists agreed to endorse a long time ago and we're all still dealing with their stupid bullshit. Trade Hasid with Taliban or Baptist, there's not really much difference.
Okay? It says a lot about Israel that every time I criticize it people always compare it to horrible things. Israel has been compared to the Taliban and 18th century America in this thread, and that's by people who like Israel.
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No. I'm asking what nation you think is good. How did you misread what I said?
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That's not at all what he said Bobby, and I'm pretty sure you know it.
Both of you seem to be operating under the assumption that I have never talked to DaveNJ about Israel before and do not remember his opinions about Israel, and about how I dislike what he think and how he thinks so much that when he occasionally agrees with me I second-guess myself.

I knew where that question was leading, DaveNJ, and if you didn't, all that means is that I overestimated your memory, awareness, and debating skill.
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I'm wondering though, if you make lists of all crimes committed in the US and blame them on the US instead of the actual individuals responsible?
I don't really see that as relevant. Do you think my problem with Israel is I blame it for all of its domestic crime?

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Is that what justifies Israel? That is all you have? The morality of any action is irrelevant if it is 1) successful, and 2) sustained long enough?

Do you think the issue is that I'm hating on people who don't believe what their parents believed and don't endorse what their parents did, and I want to treat them as if they were their parents? Is that what's going on here?

Israel is, rather than just being cozy with, the outgrowth and direct result of a recognized terrorist group. If single statements suffice to discredit.

Okay? It says a lot about Israel that every time I criticize it people always compare it to horrible things. Israel has been compared to the Taliban and 18th century America in this thread, and that's by people who like Israel.


Both of you seem to be operating under the assumption that I have never talked to DaveNJ about Israel before and do not remember his opinions about Israel, and about how I dislike what he think and how he thinks so much that when he occasionally agrees with me I second-guess myself.

I knew where that question was leading, DaveNJ, and if you didn't, all that means is that I overestimated your memory, awareness, and debating skill.

I don't really see that as relevant. Do you think my problem with Israel is I blame it for all of its domestic crime?
So, in summation, you're not going to answer my question, even ten days later?

Again, you call it a "bad country". I ask for your definition of a good one. Without such information, your statement is meaningless.

And again, it's worth noting that many nations were born of concentrated campaigns of what could be termed terrorism. If such a thing precluded nationalism then, by virtue of that very notion, Palestinians would not be able to have a state.

Still, I really want to know what makes Israel a particularly egregious nation, per your concept of what makes nations good or bad. Without this information we are at an impasse of entirely your imposition.
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