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Old 09-05-2012, 04:36 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Thank you, Blitz. I'm hoping there is a collection, in english, somewhere out there...
The Gnostic Gospels have definitely been published, I have a copy at home. You could probably start digging around the internet to find other stuff. It's pretty overwhelming, because there is a lot of stuff out there.
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Old 09-05-2012, 04:46 PM   #112 (permalink)
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The Gnostic Gospels have definitely been published, I have a copy at home. You could probably start digging around the internet to find other stuff. It's pretty overwhelming, because there is a lot of stuff out there.
yeah, that is why you need four years of schooling to shift through it all. crazy!
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:22 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Sorry to interrupt the primate discussion, but does anyone know where to find the books of the Bible that were omitted? [I'm kinda sorta looking at you, Stulagu...]
OK. So, I just had a discussion with my friend who got a church related degree and is married to a pastor. Wanted to make sure I had things straight before I wrote it here. (I only had a couple years of education on this not the 8 plus she has)

SO...the Council of Nicea met in the 300's and that was to unite all of the small churches that were spreading like crazy throughout Europe. They decided on basic doctrine and agreed on the books collected being the books of the Bible. These books were already in place, but this was the confirmation of setting the books as canon.

From my friend: "the Catholic church includes the apocrapha which has 1 and 2 Maccabees as books, among others. There are also Peter and Stephen, which were never considered by 1st century Christians to be worth anything at all"

The New Testiment was made up of letters written by the followers of Jesus to the churches to help guide them in living the way Jesus taught. The Peter and Stephen letters, when read by people who knew them, were deemed fake. The others were authentic...once again, because the people they were written to knew these men personally.

The letters were written to specific congregations, who passed them around to each other, and that basically makes up the New Testiment. The Old Testiment has been around obviously much longer and pieces are in Muslim and Jewish faiths as well.

My friend doesn't know much about the apocrapha because she is Lutheran, not Catholic...but says the gnostic books are throwaway, like the books of Mormon. They were meant to supplement the Bible, but aren't "God's Word" and most were discredited early on.

So that's what I've got. Christianity was very much a grassroots oganization to start with and, as usual, humans ruined it and turned it into a political power way back when and have been abusing it every since.
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Old 09-05-2012, 05:49 PM   #114 (permalink)
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They were meant to supplement the Bible, but aren't "God's Word" and most were discredited early on.
How do you discredit one piece of fiction from another?
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:06 PM   #115 (permalink)
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How do you discredit one piece of fiction from another?
Zing!

The problem is that there is never a shortage of people who claim that their words are divinely inspired. And I'm sorry, but just because a body of men with authority decided that this book is "real" but this other book is "fake" doesn't make any of it true. How did the dudes in the year 300 personally know the dudes who wrote the gospels -- that means they were written hundreds of years after Jesus was dead.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:48 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Zing!

The problem is that there is never a shortage of people who claim that their words are divinely inspired. And I'm sorry, but just because a body of men with authority decided that this book is "real" but this other book is "fake" doesn't make any of it true. How did the dudes in the year 300 personally know the dudes who wrote the gospels -- that means they were written hundreds of years after Jesus was dead.
Nope, the authenticity of the books were decided shortly after Jesus' death, and, like I said, the Council made it canon (official). And they personally knew the men that wrote these letters, so yeah, it was easy for them to decide.

And no matter who you think Jesus was, he WAS a real person, and the disciples were real people and really died horrific deaths for their religion. There are many historic facts, you can't discredit everything just because you don't believe the spiritual parts. That is like saying Cleopatra wasn't real because you can only find her likeness and story in a couple historical references.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:13 PM   #117 (permalink)
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There are many historic facts, you can't discredit everything just because you don't believe the spiritual parts.
Any book that outright makes shit up at least half the time is high on the list of suspicious bullshit.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:30 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Look into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, because you just employed it with your post.
I meant quite the opposite. Keith posits that fallacy when he states christians are all X because his experience of Catholics is X. I was pointing out that not only are Catholics not the prime example for other christians, but that some of your more fundy types don't even consider them real christians.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:49 PM   #119 (permalink)
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I don't think God is pro gay marriage. I think he is obilivious to that. Marriage is something humans came up with. A biological creator is simply concerned with procreation so the species continues.
I was lazy; god-who-is-love wants people who love one another to be happy together. Procreation is a lovely benefit if that comes of it but if you say that is the reason for mate-pairing then you are reducing us to breeders.

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Aesops Fabels, in NO WAY are fact. They are cautionary tales. And there are plenty of Christians that believe every word of the Bible is God ordained and therefor happened exactly the way they said it happened. Though I'm definitely inclined to believe they were tales passed down over the generations.
Read more carefully; I wrote that Aesop and parts of the bible convey TRUTH, not fact. Grimms Fairy Tales and Shakespeare's sonnets tell truths but very few facts. I believe that much of the bible teaches truths through storytelling, history with editorials, and poetry.

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I don't know many Christians that don't consider Catholics Christians.
Like Keith, just because you haven't experienced it, you don't believe it to be true? Just Google "are Catholics christian" and you'll see. e.g. http://www.born-again-christian.info/catholics.htm

(Full disclosure: I'm a liberal Catholic Christian who doesn't go to church because my priest is an ass who didn't want to deal with my questions.)
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Last edited by Lura; 09-06-2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 09-05-2012, 11:59 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Sorry to interrupt the primate discussion, but does anyone know where to find the books of the Bible that were omitted? [I'm kinda sorta looking at you, Stulagu...]
It's a starting point, but here is a pretty good Wiki article about the development of the canon of the bible (list of books). I know it's just Wiki, but it follows what I know from my own studies. Development of the Christian biblical canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Proto-Evangelion of James is entertaining. I believe that is the one where little toddler Jesus and his buddy make clay birds. His buddy's is prettier so Jesus makes his own come to life and fly around.
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