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View Poll Results: Should there be another American Civil War?
Yes 66 52.38%
No 60 47.62%
Voters: 126. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-04-2012, 08:07 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Some times I'm scared if you get rid of religion we'll be faced with an even scarier truth... that people just believe this bigoted nonsense not BECAUSE of religion but in spite of religion. I'm not sure it's religion that makes people racist, homophobic of xenophobic. I feel like it comes from somewhere even deeper than that and religion is just an easy way of explaining it and not feeling like it's "your fault."

I agree with you. If religion disappeared tomorrow, human beings would just devise some other social tool to categorize and separate each other into "teams." Tribal mentality is the nasty underbelly of our survival instinct. We obsessively try to identify who is "one of us" and who is "one of them." I'm not justifying it -- it leads to a lot of bloodshed and terrible things. But religion is just one arbitrary tool that we use to do it. We'd come up with something else if religion didn't exist.
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Old 09-04-2012, 08:46 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I agree with you. If religion disappeared tomorrow, human beings would just devise some other social tool to categorize and separate each other into "teams." Tribal mentality is the nasty underbelly of our survival instinct. We obsessively try to identify who is "one of us" and who is "one of them." I'm not justifying it -- it leads to a lot of bloodshed and terrible things. But religion is just one arbitrary tool that we use to do it. We'd come up with something else if religion didn't exist.
Isn't politics that other social tool? Seems to me that politics both in your country and in ours is successfully fulfilling that goal - even if we, the people, aren't active participants in their agenda.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:01 AM   #43 (permalink)
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we, the people, aren't active participants in their agenda.
ding! ding! ding! i'm not well versed in Australian politics, but here in the states the people have become disenfranchised from the process which is dangerous because we bear the burden of our situation. we were given the power to steer our ship; it was a radical thought. we got lazy and handed the wheel over to the robber barons. the citizenship is responsible for what happens to the country. if we want it back, we will have to demand it back in unison or they will continue to pick apart our still warm corpse while we watch.

changing your facebook profile photo is not demanding your liberty.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:16 AM   #44 (permalink)
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...here in the states the people have become disenfranchised from the process which is dangerous because we bear the burden of our situation. we were given the power to steer our ship; it was a radical thought. we got lazy and handed the wheel over to the robber barons.
I think it's worse than that. It's been demonstrated that people vote AGAINST their best interest. Too many people are too easily fooled and can't understand the ramifications of their own actions.

I can take it locally. People in my town have been voting against a bond referendum for years that would give money to improve the schools in my town. Why? Because their taxes would go up by 5 cents per month per 10k of house assessment. That's $2.50 per month for a house worth 1/2 a million dollars! $30 a year! Will their house go down by more than $30 if the schools in town become crap? Damn right they will. But people kept voting against it. That was until a group got together and spelled all of this out and last year it narrowly passed.

So people that are involved, too many of them have no idea what they're voting for or against. They do it for ideological reasons and some abstract concept they think they understand. I believe much of the apathy comes from this very problem. Others that see this sit on the sidelines. And that's where I agree with you.

I agree that thinking people, clear thinkers, need to take back our country. Not by dividing it, but by showing where we should go. I know what I say is difficult to achieve, but it took a long time to break it. We have a long time to put it back together.

That's why I voted NO on the poll. Sure, sometimes I think I'm fooling myself to think that it's possible. But I hold on to that possibility.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:21 AM   #45 (permalink)
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ding! ding! ding! i'm not well versed in Australian politics, but here in the states the people have become disenfranchised from the process which is dangerous because we bear the burden of our situation. we were given the power to steer our ship; it was a radical thought. we got lazy and handed the wheel over to the robber barons. the citizenship is responsible for what happens to the country. if we want it back, we will have to demand it back in unison or they will continue to pick apart our still warm corpse while we watch.

changing your facebook profile photo is not demanding your liberty.
Which is why Keith's idea of a new Civil War resonates with me. Down Under - despite our compulsory voting system - the level of the informal vote (ie. where people just signed their name off the electoral roll and pissed off) at the last election (2010) was somewhere close to 10%. In a country of 25 million people, that's actually significant. When you consider that our major parties Labor (libertarian) and Liberal/Nationals (conservative) can barely garner more than half the vote at any stage, the apathy is endemic. I've argued that a Civil War would do our country good - but since no one gives a fuck, the political class can just go wild.

In the past, I've tried to put my money into causes rather than just declaring my support, but the money usually ends up being misused so I end up pulling my money, throwing my hands up and declaring 'What's the fucking point?'

Last edited by Dean from Australia; 09-04-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:37 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Let's do it.

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Old 09-04-2012, 10:41 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I wish that the Christians would remember this part of the bible. He never said that they should change the day of celebration from Saturday to Sunday. He wanted them to obey the old laws. There are some small groups of actual christians that worship the old holy days and on Saturday.

I am kind of biased being Wicca and wanting my holidays back. Easter, Halloween, Christmas, and the like I want back. Christ said nothing about putting up a tree in your house and clothing it. That is very pagan!
The Romans came in and Christianized the pagan holidays and many of these holidays came from newly Christianized pagans meshing their faith and old traditions together.

And if Christians are to obey all the old laws, we shouldn't eat shellfish and should stone someone to death if they wear clothing of mixed fibers. We should have multiple wives and send the women away when they are on their period.

I think most rational Christians look at the OT as guidelines for the betterment of the people (shellfish and pigs are bottom feeders, so maybe they AREN'T the best to eat when you can die of infection easily) and as cultural traditions. The NT is more important to the faith of Christianity (the whole basis, really) and if you read it seperately from the OT you will not see nearly the rules and strictness...just the basic "love and accept one another"
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:50 AM   #48 (permalink)
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be a regular person?
I like it.

That said, I know a lot of people who would be willing to try being outside the Big U.S. as an experiment. We're located in a convenient spot for it and Keith wouldn't even miss the state.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:51 AM   #49 (permalink)
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The Romans came in and Christianized the pagan holidays and many of these holidays came from newly Christianized pagans meshing their faith and old traditions together.

And if Christians are to obey all the old laws, we shouldn't eat shellfish and should stone someone to death if they wear clothing of mixed fibers. We should have multiple wives and send the women away when they are on their period.

I think most rational Christians look at the OT as guidelines for the betterment of the people (shellfish and pigs are bottom feeders, so maybe they AREN'T the best to eat when you can die of infection easily) and as cultural traditions. The NT is more important to the faith of Christianity (the whole basis, really) and if you read it seperately from the OT you will not see nearly the rules and strictness...just the basic "love and accept one another"
I'd actually like to see the books they left out of the Bible - the ones that were debated on at the First & subsequent Councils of Nicea. Seems to me the good book was cobbled together by the pricks who one.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:54 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I think it's worse than that. It's been demonstrated that people vote AGAINST their best interest. Too many people are too easily fooled and can't understand the ramifications of their own actions.

I can take it locally. People in my town have been voting against a bond referendum for years that would give money to improve the schools in my town. Why? Because their taxes would go up by 5 cents per month per 10k of house assessment. That's $2.50 per month for a house worth 1/2 a million dollars! $30 a year! Will their house go down by more than $30 if the schools in town become crap? Damn right they will. But people kept voting against it. That was until a group got together and spelled all of this out and last year it narrowly passed.
I have just been sick when people post things like "school unions are simply the mafia" and other talking points like this with no basis in fact. I don't know WHY people don't get that if you put money into your schools and invest in your kids, they will create a better foundation for future generations.

Compromise is considered weakness, and it is so frustrating that political parties are allowed to abide by this. I really do think Obama is in the middle range as far as his politics goes and he has shown that he wants to compromise but with all the fillibusters and rediculous pandering he (and some really good people on both sides of the spectrum) is being held back.

I'm hoping that the coup the RNC pulled on the Ron Paul supporters will wake up some of the die hard republicans. I hope they start a new party and we get some three party legit politics going on.

I love the Michele Bachmann race that is gearing up in MN. All of her points have been proven completely false and she is getting more and more crazy. The opponant is a rich guy, but he at least seems to be level headed, so hopefully people will see the light and get that crazy bitch out of office.

We need more people in politics like Al Franken (and I'm totally serious). Someone that is really savvy, doesn't take himself too seriously and actually writes legislation!

A friend of mine on facebook said he'd love it if there was a political app where you could direct message your representatives and follow their votes (with politifact checking the actual facts). I like that idea, make it EASY to be involved in politics and maybe, just maybe, people will start to care again.

And Sparrow, everything you said is golden.
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