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Old 03-10-2015, 11:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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2144: The Waterboy

With Alex Edelman – #dancingman revisited; Alex’s cupcake water story revisited; Curt Schilling vs. The Internet; University of Oklahoma's Sigma Alpha Epsilon n-word chant; an all-male Ghostbusters reboot will follow the all-female Ghostbusters reboot; civilian calls 911 about stolen cocaine

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Alex Edelman



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Old 03-11-2015, 03:47 AM   #2 (permalink)
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This was a very thought provoking episode with the twitter/online speech accountability discussion. My initial reaction, and one I keep coming back to no matter how extreme the speech becomes, is that I don't think it's right to ruin someone's life over an otherwise throwaway sentence. Take the white woman at the start of the episode - is it right that she loses her job over a bad joke? Follow this through to the worst possible outcomes, what if she became unemployable, lost her house, ended up on the streets, what if she killed herself because of the shame? Is that a proportionate response to an off-colour joke that hurts nobody? Alex talks a lot about personal accountability but comes short of suggesting what that accountability would look like. Is the whole Twitter-sphere crashing down on you and calling you out enough of a response? If she went and volunteered with an AIDS charity would that be enough to un-ruin her life?

But then you bring up the tweets about Schilling's daughter and I'm obviously disgusted by them - what's the right kind of punishment for this kind of behaviour? And what's the appropriate response to a deluge of rape references? I find myself thinking that if these tweets did cause genuine distress to Miss Schilling then there probably is grounds for legal prosecution there because surely it counts as some kind of malicious harassment, like a modern version of heavy-breathing on a telephone.

Again, I come back to the idea of the offending tweeters and how easy it is to forget that there are human beings behind their disgusting words - is it right that these people should have their lives ruined because they hurt someone's feelings? Is that an appropriate or proportional response? In the back of my head I can hear Keith shouting "YES!" but I think that's bullshit. It's bloodthirsty and callous and lacks any kind of empathy. But then so did the people tweeting rape shit at a little girl. They're not rapists though - where's the line here?

As evidenced by my copious use of question marks, I don't even think I can come up with a satisfactory answer. Maybe the solution is simply to not be an asshole on the internet, and if you are then be prepared to have real consequences on your physical life beyond the keyboard, but then isn't that a kind of thought-crime concept? The mere act of taking a thought and publishing it is enough to end your current cozy life?

I think part of the problem is that 'the public' as an entity is utterly unable to think in a non-binary fashion. Something is either OK, or it's totally not OK and the offending person should be punished. There seems to be very little room for nuance in this emergent instant judiciary system and I think that's a problem that we as a society are going to face more and more as time goes on.

In before "you're goofy" :P
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Old 03-11-2015, 04:07 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Its 2015 and people still don't seem to understand that the internet is a) public and b) never forgets.

Specifically if you post stupid shit on twitter in most cases it is openly accessible to everbody, with facebook you could at least hope that you managed the privacy settings correctly and your circle of friends won't rat you out but even that happens a lot.

There is even a browser extension to help with that:
https://chrome.google.com/webstore/d...anefdpleabdmoa
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Old 03-11-2015, 04:44 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Id like to turn your attention to my Bottoms Up Show thread: 'Beacause I Got High.'

https://www.keithandthegirl.com/foru...43/#post832267

Emmy breaks down frats.
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Old 03-11-2015, 07:16 AM   #5 (permalink)
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John asks, "They're not rapists - where's the line here?"

The line is that we didn't put the offenders in jail for being rapists. They lost their jobs because it would be so hard to work with someone who made these continuous pro-rape comments.

"There seems to be very little room for nuance."

The guy wants her dad to, "Teach me your knuckleball technique so I can shove my fist in your daughter." That's some nuance. It's tough to judge such subtlety...

"A thought-crime concept?" Once you say your thought to someone, it's no longer just a thought - especially when you typed it out and then hit SEND. (Then did it again and again.)

You mentioned, "Maybe the solution is to not be an asshole on the Internet."

Maybe...

Can you imagine?
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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This episode reminded me of a quote by Stephen Fry;

"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fucking what."

Being offended is the new black.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I feel like there's a "Schilling's List" joke in there somewhere.
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Old 03-11-2015, 08:56 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith View Post
John asks, "They're not rapists - where's the line here?"

The line is that we didn't put the offenders in jail for being rapists. They lost their jobs because it would be so hard to work with someone who made these continuous pro-rape comments.

"There seems to be very little room for nuance."

The guy wants her dad to, "Teach me your knuckleball technique so I can shove my fist in your daughter." That's some nuance. It's tough to judge such subtlety...

"A thought-crime concept?" Once you say your thought to someone, it's no longer just a thought - especially when you typed it out and then hit SEND. (Then did it again and again.)

You mentioned, "Maybe the solution is to not be an asshole on the Internet."

Maybe...

Can you imagine?
I can imagine, sure. I know that personally whenever I think about sexually abusing someone I'm able to restrain myself to not tweet it out to the whole world, but maybe I've just got really good self control?

We're all guilty of being assholey on the internet sometimes to varying degrees, but you and me, we're good people and we hope that if someone reads or hears us say something shocking they'll won't take it entirely seriously and will judge us as three dimensional people rather than as a 140 character sentence. I have a private group on whatsapp where some friends and I send the most heinous shit to each other, if that was ever made public we'd all be fired. We don't mean a word of it (I hope) but we're really just playing games with words, saying something horrific in the pursuit of a laugh. Does that same logic apply to the people tweeting at Schilling? Could they perhaps not really mean it but instead are taking part in this seemingly new pastime of wankers sending out half hearted rape threats since that seems to be an epidemic on Twitter these days.

I'm not trying to defend these people at all, I think they and their kind (like the Gamergate idiots) are making the internet a worse place and I wish they didn't exist. But they do, and we as a community need to learn how to deal with them in an appropriate manner. The psychology of the people writing this stuff is baffling to me and I don't doubt for a second that these people are utter cunts. But is being a cunt reason enough to be unemployable for a long time? Maybe being a cunt + not knowing when to shut your mouth and keep your cunty opinions to yourself is the key here? But again, is this worth ACTUALLY ruining their lives over?

This is why I'm conflicted, I recognise that punitive action is necessary but I wonder what form that could or should take.

Also you say ""A thought-crime concept?" Once you say your thought to someone, it's no longer just a thought - especially when you typed it out and then hit SEND. (Then did it again and again.) " - I think yes, it's still a thought - it's a concept, an image that you've implanted in someone's head through language. There's nothing physical involved in this, the threats are empty and you've only said two dozen words to someone. And as well, when someone is fired for online-misconduct there's no due process here, they're tried and convicted almost immediately through volume of public opinion. I think it's a bit much, really.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:07 AM   #9 (permalink)
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And then I heard the Curt Schilling story...

Okay, a little bit offended is okay.
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Old 03-11-2015, 09:40 AM   #10 (permalink)
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How One Stupid Tweet Blew Up Justine Sacco’s Life:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/15/ma...ccos-life.html

Keith asked if Justine Sacco was a valued employee. She was "30 years old and the senior director of corporate communications at IAC". Thats not bad - of course a comms director should know how Twitter works.

Also, the last two paragraphs might help convince whether #dancingman is a good idea.
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Last edited by My Sweaty Balls; 03-11-2015 at 09:48 AM.
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