Israel Attacks Aid Ship in Int'l Waters.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by thepetek

He's getting all historical and shit. He went Pontius Pilate on our asses.

Originally Posted by Junkenstein

Ah, i missed that. Yep, he's totally right.

I am getting all historical, but Pontius Pilate was a piker.

I'm talking about the diaspora that followed the fall of Judea and the Bar Kokhba revolt. You guys remember, when the Roman sold the Jews into slavery and physically dispersed them them throughout the Empire.

[Deadlysherpa]

a few important things that haven't been mentioned yet:

1. Here's a list that was temporarily leaked of just some of the banned items that would be confiscated once submitted to inspection:

sage, cardamom, cumin, coriander, ginger, jam, halva, vinegar, nutmeg, chocolate, fruit preserves, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, potato chips, gas for soft drinks, dried fruit, fresh meat,plaster, tar, wood for construction, cement, iron, glucose, industrial salt, plastic/glass/metal containers, industrial, tarpaulin sheets for huts, fabric (for clothing), flavor and smell enhancers, Fishing rods, various fishing nets, buoys, ropes for fishing, nylon nets for greenhouses, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, spare parts for tractors, dairies for cowsheds, irrigation pipe systems, ropes to tie greenhouses, planters for saplings, heaters for chicken farms, musical instruments, size A4 paper, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, sewing machines and spare parts, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, chicks.


So basically, don't build shit, don't farm, don't fish, don't write. In addition it can take over a year for some items to make it through to gaza at which point they are spoiled- food and medicine as an example.

Some of the items on the flotilla, if sent over land or Ashdod port. would be confiscated and never make it to gaza:

Wheelchairs, cement, Lumber, plaster, construction tools like the sticks you saw as weapon evidence, toys, textbooks, pens & pencils, paper, toys like pikachu backpacks and children's slingshots, a great deal of food, scaffolding and who knows what else.

Supplies headed into Palestine are 1/4th of what they were pre-blockade. This pre-blockade period was during economic sanctions by the US, EU, Isreal, and Russia- already a much reduced figure.

2. The justification used to support boarding a civilian ship in international waters presumes a state of war between two foreign entities. There's been a ceasefire since January 2009, Isreal is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. This is what the UN high commissioner for human rights had to say on the matter:

“I unequivocally condemn what appears to be disproportionate use of force, resulting in the killing and wounding of so many people attempting to bring much-needed aid to the people of Gaza, who have now been enduring a blockade for more than three years,” Ms. Pillay said.

She called on the Israeli Government to heed the “almost unanimous international view that the continued blockade of Gaza is both inhumane and illegal.”

2. If the activists were heavily armed, and when boarded, proceeded to shoot and kill the invading isreali force to a man, they would still be in the right. (instead they used improvised weapons and were slaughtered)

It becomes more clear how terrible this act was when you simply switch out a few of the players- A civilian isreali humanitarian aid ship in international waters was boarded by Iranian(saudi, turkish) special forces, who took the ship to the nearest allied port and confiscated its cargo. There were 10 isreali casualities.

What sort of international response do you think there would be?

3. The only video evidence of the actual conflict is two minutes of footage edited and produced by the isreali government. Why just these two minutes? Surely the state would release more footage if it supported their story. A big part of the outrage that resulted from the attack (other than a bunch of bodies) was because of the live camera people were watching was connected to the satellite feed. It was the only thing the jamming technology couldn't hit when the commandos moved in.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHKLWIjeFo&start=110

[BrianAlt]

Originally Posted by Deadlysherpa

1. Here's a list that was temporarily leaked of just some of the banned items that would be confiscated once submitted to inspection:

...chicks.

WHAT?!?! No chicks?

[scotticus]

I'm on SSG's side in this whole debate. Mostly because he could kill me, but also because he's smarter than you.

[SSG]

Originally Posted by scotticus

I'm on SSG's side in this whole debate. Mostly because he could kill me, but also because he's smarter than you.

Scott, you're a helluva man and completely correct.

[DaveNJ]

Originally Posted by Deadlysherpa

a few important things that haven't been mentioned yet:

1. Here's a list that was temporarily leaked of just some of the banned items that would be confiscated once submitted to inspection:

sage, cardamom, cumin, coriander, ginger, jam, halva, vinegar, nutmeg, chocolate, fruit preserves, seeds and nuts, biscuits and sweets, potato chips, gas for soft drinks, dried fruit, fresh meat,plaster, tar, wood for construction, cement, iron, glucose, industrial salt, plastic/glass/metal containers, industrial, tarpaulin sheets for huts, fabric (for clothing), flavor and smell enhancers, Fishing rods, various fishing nets, buoys, ropes for fishing, nylon nets for greenhouses, hatcheries and spare parts for hatcheries, spare parts for tractors, dairies for cowsheds, irrigation pipe systems, ropes to tie greenhouses, planters for saplings, heaters for chicken farms, musical instruments, size A4 paper, writing implements, notebooks, newspapers, toys, razors, sewing machines and spare parts, heaters, horses, donkeys, goats, cattle, chicks.


So basically, don't build shit, don't farm, don't fish, don't write. In addition it can take over a year for some items to make it through to gaza at which point they are spoiled- food and medicine as an example.

Some of the items on the flotilla, if sent over land or Ashdod port. would be confiscated and never make it to gaza:

Wheelchairs, cement, Lumber, plaster, construction tools like the sticks you saw as weapon evidence, toys, textbooks, pens & pencils, paper, toys like pikachu backpacks and children's slingshots, a great deal of food, scaffolding and who knows what else.

Supplies headed into Palestine are 1/4th of what they were pre-blockade. This pre-blockade period was during economic sanctions by the US, EU, Isreal, and Russia- already a much reduced figure.

2. The justification used to support boarding a civilian ship in international waters presumes a state of war between two foreign entities. There's been a ceasefire since January 2009, Isreal is trying to have it's cake and eat it too. This is what the UN high commissioner for human rights had to say on the matter:



2. If the activists were heavily armed, and when boarded, proceeded to shoot and kill the invading isreali force to a man, they would still be in the right. (instead they used improvised weapons and were slaughtered)

It becomes more clear how terrible this act was when you simply switch out a few of the players- A civilian isreali humanitarian aid ship in international waters was boarded by Iranian(saudi, turkish) special forces, who took the ship to the nearest allied port and confiscated its cargo. There were 10 isreali casualities.

What sort of international response do you think there would be?

3. The only video evidence of the actual conflict is two minutes of footage edited and produced by the isreali government. Why just these two minutes? Surely the state would release more footage if it supported their story. A big part of the outrage that resulted from the attack (other than a bunch of bodies) was because of the live camera people were watching was connected to the satellite feed. It was the only thing the jamming technology couldn't hit when the commandos moved in.


YouTube - Journalist On Gaza Bound Aid Ship Speaks Out

That first list is a combination of nice, but not necessary, foodstuffs, along with plenty of goods with military applications. Why should Israel allow cement or lumber in when Hamas is just going to confiscate it? Irrigation pipes? Piping is of supreme usefulness for creating improvised rockets, which Hamas has clearly taken a shine to.

But the foodstuffs on that list? Chocolate isn't a human necessity. Neither is halva. Nor is coriander. Israel is in a state of war with Hamas. They're required to allow in such aid as to make sure the population doesn't starve. They're not obligated to make sure that Gaza has candy and soda.

It sucks that many products necessary for the development of Gaza are potential dual-use products. Unfortunately that's the way things go. Hamas has the option to end the war at any time by freeing Gilad Shalit, renouncing violence, and recognizing Israel's right to exist.

Easy, peasy, no more blockade. Literally three things, only one of which involves transferring anything to Israel, and it's one guy.

As for the second part, the cease fire is non-binding, and mutual only insofar as each side chooses to follow it. It did not, and still does not, end the state of war between Hamas and Israel, especially given Hamas statements that clearly dictate that the state of war is NOT OVER.

Israel is allowed to blockade and board ships under San Remo so long as a state of war exists between Israel and Hamas, a state that BOTH PARTIES AGREE EXISTS.

As to the actions on the Mavi Marmara, compare them to the Rachel Corrie, which was boarded today without any violence. It docked at Ashdod, goods were searched, and the activists were deported. Nobody died. Nobody was even injured.

The violent response from the Mavi Marmara was at best very stupid and at worst an intentional act of "martyrdom".

[hayroob]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Easy, peasy, no more blockade. Literally three things, only one of which involves transferring anything to Israel, and it's one guy.

Thats nonsense. Nothing either side does is going to make the other side act rationally.

This is mexican standoff nonsense where neither side wants to admit that they're both being a bunch of assholes.

[thepetek]

Originally Posted by DaveNJ

Chocolate isn't a human necessity.

Your girl never gets in that mood? Wait, you don't have a girl, do you?

Trust me, you gotta keep a little chocolate around, lest you find yourself going out to the store at 2 in the a.m. And if the store is all blowed up, or can't even get corriander, may as well keep walking.

Sometimes I wish the Jews would shoot me.

[Deadlysherpa]

Why are these on the confiscation list? Who is Isreal to say that innocent "nice but not necessary" items like flour, meat, and sugar are not for the likes of the gaza people, until they accept the iron domination of isreal?

If Isreal is in a state of war with hamas, or even mutual armed conflict, the gaza strip is occupied territory and the 1.5 million palestinians living there have become protected persons under international law. As such, Isreal would be guilty of the following war crimes:

-Apartheid
-Collective Punishment
-Ethnic Cleansing
-Aggressive settlement

These are the (arguably) committed war crimes that apply whether isreal is currently at war or not.
-war of aggression
-Use of incindiaries as anti-personnel rounds

Isreal wants to be both "at war" and "not officially at war". That's the line they've been riding for some 50 years now.

The Rachel Corrie was boarded because of the illegal blockade of gaza (remember, not officially at war, right?) and it's most needed goods will be confiscated and the rice and medicine will get through to gaza. What happens to the 9000+ tons of other material confiscated from the flotilla? Well I think you can agree they just should not have challenged the blockade.

[SSG]

Dave, you're an idiot.