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View Poll Results: Do you still support Israel's blockade of Gaza?
Yes 31 43.66%
No 40 56.34%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-01-2010, 01:48 AM   #11 (permalink)
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The ship was there with TWO goals: break the blockade and deliver aid. Both were the expressed goals of the activists. Israel offered to take the aid at the port of Ashdod, search it for potential contraband, and then deliver all non-prohibited materials to the Gaza Strip via crossings.

If this were purely an aid mission they should have gone to Ashdod.
I think the issue is in the definite of contraband. The last few aide convoys ended up at an Israeli port and there is some question as to whether the aide got to the people it was intended to get to.

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As for alternative means, I'd love to hear a few from you. Israel warned the ships numerous times to go to the port of Ashdod. This confrontation has been boiling for weeks. It didn't need to happen.
Alternately, don't turn Gaza into the Warsaw ghetto?
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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As for alternative means, I'd love to hear a few from you.
Sink the whole middle east into the sea?
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:07 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I think the issue is in the definite of contraband. The last few aide convoys ended up at an Israeli port and there is some question as to whether the aide got to the people it was intended to get to.



Alternately, don't turn Gaza into the Warsaw ghetto?
It's certainly an issue. But THE issue here was breaking the blockade, not altering the types of aid allowed into the Gaza Strip.

There are also legitimate security issues here. Ships breaking the blockade could be carrying just about anything.

Israel releases arms ship said destined for Hezbollah - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Last year Israel seized 500 tons of small and heavy arms headed to Hezbollah.

This ship apparently had switchblades on board. Again, that's extremely problematic.

As to Gaza being the Warsaw Ghetto it is:

a. Not in Poland

b. Has no Jews (Israel removed all Jews from there in '06)

c. Is under blockade from two factions, as opposed to one (Egypt and Israel)

d. Is governed by a terror group that has the established goal of destroying an existing nation state

e. Has committed, and continues to commit, acts of terror and war crimes

The productivity of the blockade aside, it's tough to see how Israel's at fault for a group of peace activists taking bats and switchblades to people using dispersal techniques.

And again, the blockade exists because without it arms smuggling into Gaza by sea would be extremely easy, and would allow Hamas to gain access to bigger and better weapons, something pretty much nobody wants to see happen outside of Iran.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:08 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Feelin sad about Keith and Chemda. Wishing an Israeli gunboat would sink me to death
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Sink the whole middle east into the sea?
One boat at a time, Picard. One boat at a time.
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Old 06-01-2010, 02:50 AM   #16 (permalink)
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It's certainly an issue. But THE issue here was breaking the blockade, not altering the types of aid allowed into the Gaza Strip.
Well, THE activists were unhappy with what THE Israelis consider contraband and have been challenging THE blockade because of that.

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There are also legitimate security issues here. Ships breaking the blockade could be carrying just about anything.

Israel releases arms ship said destined for Hezbollah - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Last year Israel seized 500 tons of small and heavy arms headed to Hezbollah.
Maybe it's time for neutral inspectors?


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This ship apparently had switchblades on board. Again, that's extremely problematic.
Sure, when you're a Jet you're a Jet. From your...I don't know something something Westside story. All that US paid for weaponry, yet they were routed by a bunch of Turkish fisherman with switchblades. Well, until they gunned them down.

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As to Gaza being the Warsaw Ghetto it is:

a. Not in Poland

b. Has no Jews (Israel removed all Jews from there in '06)

c. Is under blockade from two factions, as opposed to one (Egypt and Israel)

d. Is governed by a terror group that has the established goal of destroying an existing nation state

e. Has committed, and continues to commit, acts of terror and war crimes.
Yes, I meant it was literally the Warsaw ghetto. I even said literally. Oh, no, I didn't. Hmm.


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The productivity of the blockade aside, it's tough to see how Israel's at fault for a group of peace activists taking bats and switchblades to people using dispersal techniques.
Of course it is. Next time I shoot someone, I'm calling it a dispersal technique, too.


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And again, the blockade exists because without it arms smuggling into Gaza by sea would be extremely easy, and would allow Hamas to gain access to bigger and better weapons, something pretty much nobody wants to see happen outside of Iran.
And the blockade runners exist because they think it's improper to starve a people to death.

But hey, between the Israeli strike team and the Peace Activists, I'm on the side with the Holocaust Survivor.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:27 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well, THE activists were unhappy with what THE Israelis consider contraband and have been challenging THE blockade because of that.



Maybe it's time for neutral inspectors?




Sure, when you're a Jet you're a Jet. From your...I don't know something something Westside story. All that US paid for weaponry, yet they were routed by a bunch of Turkish fisherman with switchblades. Well, until they gunned them down.



Yes, I meant it was literally the Warsaw ghetto. I even said literally. Oh, no, I didn't. Hmm.




Of course it is. Next time I shoot someone, I'm calling it a dispersal technique, too.




And the blockade runners exist because they think it's improper to starve a people to death.

But hey, between the Israeli strike team and the Peace Activists, I'm on the side with the Holocaust Survivor.
That's a part of it, petek, but not the entirety. Many of these "peace activists" are linked to Hamas, Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood, Global Jihad, etc.

This wasn't just about what is considered contraband. It was about totally ending the blockade, a practice that would have significant negative security ramifications for the state of Israel.

As for neutral inspectors, I'd love it, but we're nowhere close to that happening. And until we're there states are going to place their security first.

On to the Turkish fishermen with switchblades, again this goes back to Keith's concept of a "fair fight". First, a large group attacking one person with light arms is extremely dangerous. It is in no way outrageous to say this constituted a threat to the lives of the commandos. Second, responding to a knife attack with gunfire is hardly wrong. Meeting lethal force with lethal force doesn't violate any moral precepts here.

You brought up the Warsaw Ghetto, not me. Defend your point or don't bring up stuff that's not really relevant.

The commandos used tears gas, paintball guns, and flashbangs. Those are dispersal techniques. It appears that the shooting only occurred after the commandos were met with potentially lethal light arms and a service weapon was stolen from one of the commandos and fired.

These blockade runners aren't just interested in bringing in food. If they were they'd have gone to Ashdod. They oppose the blockade entirely, even in light of the security issues. This is because many of them don't care about, or actively support, Hamas, a terror organization that continues to attempt to kill Israeli civilians.

Between Israeli strikes teams and Raed Salah I'm gonna go with the strike team. Being a Holocaust survivor doesn't make one an automatic moral authority, especially when one survived in exile in the UK.

Raed Salah, conversely, raised funds for Hamas and Hezbollah, did jail time in Israel for it, and continues to advocate against the state of Israel. He even goes so far as to attempt to claim the Western Wall as part of a mosque.

So yeah. Gimme the strike team over the guy who raised funds for terrorist groups. He's no advocate for peace.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I was just over at Digg, this subject is in the top whatever list there.

Reading the comments section, either I am very stupid or the Digg folk are. The top 100 comments are all calling Israel pirates and terrorists.

What am I missing? Are all my questions obviously answered somewhere that I am just not seeing? Sure, you can question the morality of the blockade, I can accept that, but the blockade is there. The response to the deliberate blockade running was measured and exactly what I would have expected. Why is this making major headlines at all in the context of controversy? This should be on par with one of those whaling protester boats getting run over by a Japanese ship, and that barely grabs media attention.

I'm not pro Israel, for the record. This whole thing seems like it played out in a very typical "duh, what did you expect" sort of way...
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To be fair, to really follow Spooky's diet, you can't just eat chicken. You have to spend your days cleaning up after a slob roommate and night shivering like a rain soaked rage filled chihuahua about having to clean up after said roommate until you finally snap and yell at him. It should be called the Mexican maid diet.
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Old 06-01-2010, 03:59 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I was just over at Digg, this subject is in the top whatever list there.

Reading the comments section, either I am very stupid or the Digg folk are. The top 100 comments are all calling Israel pirates and terrorists.

What am I missing? Are all my questions obviously answered somewhere that I am just not seeing? Sure, you can question the morality of the blockade, I can accept that, but the blockade is there. The response to the deliberate blockade running was measured and exactly what I would have expected. Why is this making major headlines at all in the context of controversy? This should be on par with one of those whaling protester boats getting run over by a Japanese ship, and that barely grabs media attention.

I'm not pro Israel, for the record. This whole thing seems like it played out in a very typical "duh, what did you expect" sort of way...
The only thing people didn't see coming was the death toll. And unfortunately that seems to be because few believed these activists would take knives and bats to commandos if boarded, or do something as patently dumb as steal a service weapon and fire it.

It's controversial to people who already have a position and desire to use the issue to reinforce their position.

On its own it's pretty clear that some folks were deluded into thinking they could break a blockade being enforced by a well-equipped military, and turned a rough and tumble affair into a lethal one out of sheer stupidity.
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Old 06-01-2010, 08:32 AM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm having a hard time taking a strong position on the subject. Most of the information we received on what happened is clearly biased against Israel.

My istinctive reaction would be to vent against the commandos and calling this a crime against humanity. But after discussing the situation with people who had worked there, actually delivering the humanitarian aids sometimes, things are way more complicated than they seem.

The israeli militia sees any form of attack to the Gaza blockade as something to be dealth with extreme prejudice. It's very similar to the reaction that any state under the pressur of tension would have.

But again, as a person who works in the humanitarian sector and seeing how 4 people of my country were captured (not saying i dont care about the death toll, just admitting that the direct involvment of people from my country gives this a different edge for me), i am very very tempted by the notion of nuking that damn country to the stone age.
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